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YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-09-2012, 05:45 PM
Seems like a silly question (especially from someone who understands the complexities of arbitration and the baseball offseason), but what does Gardy actually do besides fill out the lineup sheets? What does he do outside of the game is a better way to put it. I think it's important to know, because many attribute the fall of the Twins to him; whereas, I don't think a manager change really does too much in terms of wins and losses.

Nick Nelson
05-09-2012, 07:23 PM
Seems like a silly question (especially from someone who understands the complexities of arbitration and the baseball offseason), but what does Gardy actually do besides fill out the lineup sheets? What does he do outside of the game is a better way to put it. I think it's important to know, because many attribute the fall of the Twins to him; whereas, I don't think a manager change really does too much in terms of wins and losses.
No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.

Bark's Lounge
05-09-2012, 07:43 PM
If there is any argument to have Gardenhire replaced, it is pretty much a change of voice scenario. There are some like Thrylos and his minions who want to have Ron's head on a stake, but Gardy has done a pretty good job. You don't win Manager of the Year Awards if you are not respected amongst your peers and execute to a higher degree. If a change was made during the season, it would be a super shocker. If Gardy is out, it is probable the whole staff is gone as well. I can see a resignation this offseason if there isn't a major shift in progression this season and that does not necessarily mean wins vs. losses and no one except maybe Jerry White would be allowed to return to the MLB coaching staff if that scenario happens. I was reading a thread earlier today that brought up the name of Mike Redmond - If that change was made, I would be pretty stoked about that. If no player on the team has a fiery and leadership personality, I think Red Dog could fill both of those roles. It will be rebuilding no matter who holds the mantle of field manager. If you are to start over and trying to establish a new identity - Redmond fits the bill.

Seth Stohs
05-09-2012, 07:52 PM
No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.

I agree with this.

twinsnorth49
05-09-2012, 09:01 PM
No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.

I believe this as well, I've been trying to say it for weeks.

peterb18
05-09-2012, 09:10 PM
I do think that when teams are of equal ability then the right manager does make a difference. I don't know how many games over the season; but, there would be some. Gardy's biggest attribute is his personality and working with today's high priced athletes. That is big for management today. However, I do think that Gardy is average at best(or over-rated) in strategy. Example: In tonights game--5th inning)--Santana is starting to get wild--walks a couple of guys, etc. then Spann goes after the first pitch. Even a good Legion, or High School coach--would say, Let's take some pitches and make him work. Doing what Spann did is not the supposed, "Twins Way".

JB_Iowa
05-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Well, I haven't voted yet. But I have always thought that Gardenhire's best quality was an ability to keep the club on a relatively even keel -- not let them get too high or too low. And I thought that he did better in an underdog role than in a favorites role. All personal impressions but I'm not sure there is any other way to judge a manager.

I have also commented many times in the past that I thought the even keel mentality worked well over the course of a long season but was a detriment to the team over a short post-season series where there isn't time to take the long approach.

If it turns out that the keel is now permanently stuck in a depressed mode, it seems to me that you have to look at a change.

OrangeDisk
05-09-2012, 10:05 PM
I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?

spideyo
05-09-2012, 10:38 PM
I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?

Ummm...hosts a radio show? Does potato chip commercials? Hawks cherry juice?

glunn
05-09-2012, 11:32 PM
I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?

I would hope that he talks with the players individually and helps them focus on improving. But that may just be a fantasy.

In my fantasy, Gardenhire would take Pavano aside and ask him to be a mentor to a young pitcher who is struggling, such as Hendriks was before he was sent down.

twinsnorth49
05-10-2012, 12:02 AM
I would hope that he talks with the players individually and helps them focus on improving. But that may just be a fantasy.

In my fantasy, Gardenhire would take Pavano aside and ask him to be a mentor to a young pitcher who is struggling, such as Hendriks was before he was sent down.

Apparently Pavano was mentoring Hendriks before he got sent down, who else would have taught him it's a good idea to throw gopher balls over the plate to major league hitters. That's not a fantasy, it's a nightmare.

Top Gun
05-10-2012, 07:41 AM
Will Gardy make it to Memorial day?

James
05-10-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm don't usually think firing Gardy is a good idea. I did vote yes today though, but I struggled to do it.

I think that Gardy will make it through the season and he will (or be asked to) resign, but it will be mostly mutual. It may not be the best thing, but it will be a PR move to show that the ownership is at least trying to give the fans a quality product (if you believe that is genuine or not is up to you). This is just what I'm expecting to happen if the season continues like this.

powrwrap
05-10-2012, 10:10 AM
Should the Twins 'move on' with Gardenhire?

I don't know what this means. Does it mean "Should the Twins go forward with Gardenhire?" Or does it mean should the Twins "move on" to another manager other than Gardenhire?

My answer is that the Twins should not fire Gardenhire.

Fire Dan Gladden
05-10-2012, 10:17 AM
There is virtually no chance Gardy gets fired this year. The injuries, lack of depth in the system, and bad direction from upstairs has more to do with our current situation then what Gardy is doing right now.

In a more global discussion, if we continue to see massive underperformances like we are seeing now, with no steps in the right direction, there would probably more internal support for this move next year.

whydidnt
05-10-2012, 12:41 PM
Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up. The manager/coaches have a huge impact on the team and players, from teaching them how to play right, to discussing when to implement strategy to making sure they are trying their best and playing within the concept of the team, to even finding out what buttons to push to get players to perform better. You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year? I'm convinced that all of this falls under the direction of the manager, and is his responsibility. What he doesn't have total control over, and appears to be the Twins biggest issue is the lack of talent. However, let's not forget that he does have input in personel decisions and that he seems to have a tendency to like and play "gritty guys" over talented guys. Will firing Gardenhire and replacing him with a HOF manager put this team in the World Series? Doubtful. However, if they continue to lose 2 out of 3 games than I think it's time for a new voice and new direction, if for no other reason that what we are doing isn't working and how could it get any worse?

glunn
05-10-2012, 11:31 PM
Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up. The manager/coaches have a huge impact on the team and players, from teaching them how to play right, to discussing when to implement strategy to making sure they are trying their best and playing within the concept of the team, to even finding out what buttons to push to get players to perform better. You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year? I'm convinced that all of this falls under the direction of the manager, and is his responsibility. What he doesn't have total control over, and appears to be the Twins biggest issue is the lack of talent. However, let's not forget that he does have input in personel decisions and that he seems to have a tendency to like and play "gritty guys" over talented guys. Will firing Gardenhire and replacing him with a HOF manager put this team in the World Series? Doubtful. However, if they continue to lose 2 out of 3 games than I think it's time for a new voice and new direction, if for no other reason that what we are doing isn't working and how could it get any worse?

I was on the fence, but this post and others have convinced me that the time has come for Gardenhire to move on.

jokin
05-11-2012, 12:41 AM
No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.

One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.

Shane Wahl
05-11-2012, 01:00 AM
One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.

Seriously? Some subtlety is required. Talking about coaches from the ages of 5-18 is one thing . . . of course they have a significant impact. The question is not about them, however. While I think the impact of a MLB manager is greater than Nick may indicate here, it is NOT like those coaches when one was a kid.

Nick Nelson
05-11-2012, 01:14 AM
Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up.
In that case, I yield to your obviously vast level of expertise when it comes to major-league managers and their impact.

These are adult, millionaire athletes we're talking about. The notion that they need managers to teach them how to play and make sure they try their best is silly. By the time they've reached the majors their fundamentals (or lack thereof) are ingrained.


You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year?
Yes, I've watched most of the games. I also watched most of the games from 2002-2010 when the Twins (under Gardy) were renowned as one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the game. I'd venture to say that the issues now are more related to personnel than the manager randomly forgetting how to coach.


One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.
Gibson's overall record as D-Backs skipper is 142-135. What does that prove or refute, exactly? Is your argument that he's chiefly responsible for the massive improvement of Arizona's pitching staff from 2010 to 2011? Did his very presence make pitchers pitch better, or did he as a former hitter have some special insight that he shared with them to drop their ERA by a full run? Explain.

Top Gun
05-11-2012, 01:23 AM
Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers.

Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,

Shane Wahl
05-11-2012, 01:45 AM
Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers.

Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,

Haha, yeah people like Seth and Aaron Gleeman were pretty adamant about Inge's terribleness. Note that in G and G 39, I believe, Aaron claims that Inge has been terrible for the last five years. That is a blatant falsity. Last year he was bad. 2008 he was below average. Before and in-between? Good. Certainly better than Drew Butera. That is the true replacement here. My god. What a damn joke.

Shane Wahl
05-11-2012, 01:48 AM
Don't get me started on this team signing actual legitimate MLB players instead of assclowns like Clete Thomas. Derrek Lee, Bobby Abreu, Vlad Guerrero, Brandon Inge. Yeah . . . no value there . . . let's sign Clete Thomas . . . and what's actually worse . . . after Thomas is terrible, allowing him to further pollute the farm system in Rochester. My god.

whydidnt
05-11-2012, 08:40 AM
In that case, I yield to your obviously vast level of expertise when it comes to major-league managers and their impact.

These are adult, millionaire athletes we're talking about. The notion that they need managers to teach them how to play and make sure they try their best is silly. By the time they've reached the majors their fundamentals (or lack thereof) are ingrained.


Yes, I've watched most of the games. I also watched most of the games from 2002-2010 when the Twins (under Gardy) were renowned as one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the game. I'd venture to say that the issues now are more related to personnel than the manager randomly forgetting how to coach.



Well, if you really think that once a guy gets the majors he's reached the pinacle of his game and can't learn any more than I can't dissuade you from that thought. I think that there is still plenty of learning to happen. From time to time I watch some of the shows on after the Twins games focusing on players like Blyleven, Carew, etc. It seems like the often mention the positive impact a manager had on their careers, I know Carew mentioned Billy Martin the other night. I also think there were many players that played under Tom Kelly that indicated he was a positive influence on their careers. So if you think the manager has nothing to do with it, so be it, but I think most major leaguers have a different opinion. You also conveniently cut out my point that the biggest problem we have is lack of talent, which would seem to agree with your statement. Baseball players really aren't that different from most the rest of us, sure they have a specific talent, and probably are more competitive, but at the end of the day they still can and should continue to learn, adapt and improve, just like those of us in the work force have to. Often we improve significantly when we have a leader or mentor that takes us under their wing and teaches us. Even though we were already vastly qualified to do the job we were hired to do. I guess you think that doesn't happen when a guy gets to the majors though, and that the Manager can't and shouldn't do these things. It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?

Boom Boom
05-11-2012, 08:52 AM
I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.

twinsnorth49
05-11-2012, 10:12 AM
It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?

At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.

twinsnorth49
05-11-2012, 10:17 AM
I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.

I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.

Boom Boom
05-11-2012, 10:25 AM
I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.

And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-11-2012, 10:29 AM
I never really put much thought into the way I wrote the question. I could see how you could get confused. I meant "go forward" or to keep him in the same position.

whydidnt
05-11-2012, 10:30 AM
At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.

Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.

twinsnorth49
05-11-2012, 10:33 AM
And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.

I completely agree.

twinsnorth49
05-11-2012, 10:42 AM
Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.

I didn't say "no impact", I said "minimal impact" and that refers to the outcome of the game once it starts. Simply put, they don't play. I agree fully that Gardenhire and many managers don't deserve the heaps of praise they get when their teams win and most don't deserve the heaps of abuse when they lose. Obviously wherever the manager's influence mainly lies Gardy had an awful lot of it in the past decade, what's changed other than the player's.

Yeah, Gardy threw Valencia under the bus enough to play him in 154 games last year. If he had a real choice I'm sure it would have been to throw him in front of it at 100 mph.

IdahoPilgrim
05-11-2012, 10:47 AM
I guess I'm wondering if it just makes sense to make a change (after the season) for the sake of freshness. Gardy has done well (I know some question that) but he has been there longer than any other current serving manager (with the exception of Sciosia). Perhaps his approach and "voice" has just gotten a bit stale. I am a minister by trade, and I see a parallel with serving a church. While there are many pastors who serve 20,30, even 40 years in one place, most of the research shows that after 10-15 years in one place you do hit a point of diminishing returns. It's easy to fall into habits and patterns that may or may not work for the future; it's easy to get comfortable and get stale. It's good for the church and for the pastor to move on in different directions, so both can continue to grow.

dadawg41
05-11-2012, 12:17 PM
and where is gardenhires talent? in az. colorado, washington, detroit, chicago, LA, and wherever else the front office decided to send them. let me guess joe torre when he managed the yankees couldnt squeeze anymore talent out of his players either!?!?! put the blame where the blame is due... THE FRONT OFFICE!!!

one_eyed_jack
05-11-2012, 12:45 PM
I agree that the Twins awful record is much better explained by a lack of talent than poor managing.

However, I think manager's can have more than a negligible impact of the team. I mean if it makes no difference one way or the other, why not hire a fan off the street? I'm sure many posters here would be willing to do the job for a mere fraction of Gardy's salary.

Manager's make in-game decisions that obviously impact the outcome.

But there's all the other stuff too. They've got to make sure that guys don't get too high after wins and too low after losses. They've got to stand up to their players to umpires and the press. They've got to maintain control of the clubhouse. It's impossible to quantify this impact, and I'm certainly not close enough to it to measure it.

But I think we've seen situations where players responded very differently to one manager than another. The Orioles seemed to taked on a whole new attitude when Showalter came in and took over. Meanwhile, in Houston not loo long ago, you really got the sense that a bunch of players couldn't wait for Cecil Cooper to get canned.

Again, I don't know how much this stuff really comes into play, but I think it's more than trivial.

dadawg41
05-11-2012, 01:46 PM
i agree with that part but houston and baltimore didnt make any moves like the front office has done with the twins.

Top Gun
05-11-2012, 02:18 PM
If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.

ltwedt
05-11-2012, 02:29 PM
For the most part, good teams will win in spite of what the manager does or does not do. That said, the manager does impact games by appropriately jerking a pitcher or leaving him in too long, or by favoring a player by playing him when he should not be in the lineup - (see Danny Valencia, Trevor Plouff, Matt Tolbert, et al). I also do not think that managers, especially Gardy, have a lot to say about who is sent down, or called up, but mostly try to play with the hand they are dealt. He baffles me with his moves at times, but I believe that he is a pretty good manager who could be a bit more stern with some of the younger players at times. His infatuation (or maybe his unbridled fear of no DH) with Butera is maddening, but hey - it's his team to run, and he does a pretty good job.

Now, when the fire him or keep him question comes up about Terry Ryan, I'll have a lot more to say!

one_eyed_jack
05-11-2012, 02:33 PM
If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.

That's usually true, though it hasn't been here. TK would have been fired years before he hung it up if it were.

It also doesn't really tell us anything about the impact it has on a team. It's really more a result of contracts getting bigger and CBAs more complex. Trades are much harder to make than they used to be in all sports. So when a team starts losing and the front office wants to shake things up, they fire the coach or manager - not because it's the best change they can make, but it's the easiest.

Montecore
05-11-2012, 04:23 PM
When I see Gardenhire - I see a guy who presided over a 99 loss debacle only to be followed by a season heading towards a 125 loss hell. Have to imagine that many fans AND many players are seeing the same thing. The guy was always over-rated and he was a dismal leader in innumerable playoff games. Don't think he has the character to resign so, pretty please, fire his ass.

Riverbrian
05-12-2012, 01:47 PM
I'm not anti-Gardenhire and I don't understand the extreme disdain for him. I don't blame him for playoff failures. Only a handful of teams have reached the playoffs and the number is less in the AL Central because the Twins have taken the Central Title so many times while he has been employed. I don't blame Gardenhire for playing in the AL Central and refuse to use that against him.

There is very little reason to focus on the day by day game management when assessing Ron Gardenhire as a Manager? All Manager's have Hitting Charts, All Managers have stop watches, pitch counts and very similiar gut feelings. Some managers can get more out of their players but it's still the players who have to get more out of themselves. It's a game of inches and momentum. In the end, the manager can only lead the horses to water. This part of the discussion is really kind of silly.

What needs to be discussed is this... Gardy's role in picking the horses that he leads to the water!!!

Gardy's role with what is going on is in the area of player evaluation!!! Here are the questions that need to be answered. Does Gardenhire have a vote in the process? Did Garza(for example) get traded because Gardy advocated his departure for more offense? Did Gardy personally advocate keeping other pitchers in the organization over Garza? Did Gardy feel the need for more offense and communicate this strongly to the Bill Smith who acted on his behalf? Did Gardy advocate the acquiring of more offense? Was Gardy against the trading of Garza? Did Bill Smith feel the team had enough pitching against Gardy's opinion? (I'm only using Garza for example... The current problems are deeper then Garza).

The current situation is upon us because of multiple people and the bottom line is that the Owners are at the top of the food chain. The Owners hire the people who hire the people. If your organization is in tough shape... The Owners are responsible.

Gardy was part of the process that delivered some fantastic AL Central play for a nice period of time. He is currently part of the process that is delivering some of the worst Major League Baseball.

The organization is in a hole... How did it get there? Gardy I assume was part of the process and still is. How did the process change when Ryan stepped down and Bill Smith took over. Did the evaluation balance get out of whack when Ryan left. Maybe Ryan and Gardy were good balance for each other. Maybe Ryan knew when to listen to Gardy and when to trust his own judgement. Maybe Smith wasn't the type to accept Gardy's opinion's or Maybe Smith didn't trust his judgement and started relying on Gardy's judgement more then Ryan did. A lot of Maybe's and I have no way of knowing. However, the assessment process works, it was doing fine and then it went to hell. Gardy is part of that process I assume... Good and Bad.

Something Changed and now the organization needs desperate change. Gardy has to go and I think he should get more then a hallmark card when he does. He deserves our respect for his role in bringing us the many AL Central Titles. If Gardy hasn't been heard for the past decade. He get's no blame at all but then he's to blame for not being forceful enough. I'm pro-Gardenhire but the times they are a changin.

Gameday Management is the goofiest argument for being Anti-Gardenhire.

Shane Wahl
05-12-2012, 01:59 PM
And it was pretty clear in the case of J.J. Hardy, Riverbrian.

Riverbrian
05-12-2012, 02:44 PM
And it was pretty clear in the case of J.J. Hardy, Riverbrian.

This Statement will drive some folks on this site nuts but here goes anyway.

I wouldn't have traded Gomez for Hardy in the 1st place. Gomez wasn't ready for the majors! Gomez has extreme talent! He just didn't have the head yet.

After the Santana trade, he was forced into the lineup before he was ready. He sprung past Span on the depth chart and I assume it was because someone felt that someone had to show up and be a major league representative for what we got in return.

Hardy was always an injury risk. That being said... After the 1st bad trade was made acquiring Hardy... Trading Hardy for nothing to the Orioles was the next bad trade and much worse then the first.

The Bill Smith Era was directionally lost and a series of over-reactions. Was this because Gardy had more or less influence over the roster after Ryan left? Or did he have the same? I don't know. I assume that Gardy has some influence.