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spideyo
05-05-2012, 11:12 PM
Why all the hate? I keep seeing people talking about dumping him, but by the numbers he's actually been one of our best pitchers this season. Yes, he's had a lot of walks but they haven't been coming around to score. So what am I missing?

greengoblinrulz
05-05-2012, 11:30 PM
He's a 31yr old reliever who's been with 4 organizations in last 2 yrs....dime a dozen retread.
Only good thing about him is he throws relatively hard (93.5 ave fastball in 99MLB innings) but he doesnt strike guys out while having a tad too many walks (esp this yr). It's not how he's pitching this yr, its what he is over his career.
He will eventually give way to Deolis Guerra

glunn
05-05-2012, 11:33 PM
Almost one walk per inning will likely catch up with him eventually -- his WHIP is not nearly as good as his era -- but I have nothing but love for anyone on our staff who can maintain an era under 5. I would much rather lose 5 to 0 than 7 to 0 or 9 to 0. When are we going to score more than 3 runs in a game?

CDog
05-06-2012, 12:07 AM
I wonder if Fanatic Jack will be able to see this thread.

DJSim22
05-06-2012, 01:52 PM
Why all the hate? I keep seeing people talking about dumping him, but by the numbers he's actually been one of our best pitchers this season. Yes, he's had a lot of walks but they haven't been coming around to score. So what am I missing?

He'll either lower the walk total and the talk will subside, or the walks will likely catch up with him and he'll be outrighted this summer.

Thrylos
05-06-2012, 02:22 PM
0.75 K/BB, 1.412 WHIP associated with .176 BABIP and under 5 K/9, a 33.3% HR/FB is asking for trouble... ERA is fairly worthless esp. for relief pitchers. Gray inherited 11 runners 4 of them scored and those runs are not reflected in his ERA. His FIP is 6.58 btw, leading the Twins releivers.

Not "hate", he is just the worse reliever in the team right now...

Shane Wahl
05-06-2012, 02:42 PM
He has gotten magnificently lucky so far given the walks . . . and reliever should NOT be judged solely on ERA as they inherit runners who don't count against their ERA if they score. And they have, as thrylos98 notes.

John Bonnes
05-06-2012, 02:56 PM
And it isnt just this year. He doesn't have a track record as an effective reliever at any of his stops. So there isn't a whole lot of upside here.

shs_59
05-06-2012, 03:44 PM
When you have Deolis Guerra, Anthony Slama, and Tyler Robertson. + Carlos Gutierrez, Lester Oliveros, Kyle Waldrop. That are all itching for a shot. and the first 3 are clearly better than Gray is today.

It doesn't really make any sense to have Gray on the roster....... Maloney probably the same as well here after another month.

Gray is also terrible, which doesn't help.

Shane Wahl
05-06-2012, 03:52 PM
When you have Deolis Guerra, Anthony Slama, and Tyler Robertson. + Carlos Gutierrez, Lester Oliveros, Kyle Waldrop. That are all itching for a shot. and the first 3 are clearly better than Gray is today.

It doesn't really make any sense to have Gray on the roster....... Maloney probably the same as well here after another month.

Gray is also terrible, which doesn't help.

Yeah, there is something just inexplicable about the treatment of Slama, but in particular RIGHT NOW, this year, given these chumps (Maloney, Gray . . . and Swarzak, by the way).

I would say that Tyler needs to show some more at AAA right now, but Slama and Manship should be up immediately. I just don't understand it at all.

Seth Stohs
05-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Agree with shanewahl... Slama and Manship should be up now... The rest that you mention, with the exception of Waldrop, I would not say are better than Gray today... they hopefully will be in the near future. But they're not chomping at the bit like Slama and Manship are. They shoudln't be up here.

Shane Wahl
05-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Do they not want to be wrong about promoting Slama and Manship? As in, if they stink (unlikely, but if they do), they will look foolish? But who cares? It isn't like other pitchers like Guerra, DeVries, Fien, Oliveros, etc. don't exist.

Is this the traditional Twins weirdness about the last few 40-man roster spots? The last 3-4 spots should always be a potential revolving door.

Shane Wahl
05-06-2012, 03:57 PM
Are we all just taking crazy pills around here . . . ? Or what!?

spideyo
05-06-2012, 04:37 PM
0.75 K/BB, 1.412 WHIP associated with .176 BABIP and under 5 K/9, a 33.3% HR/FB is asking for trouble... ERA is fairly worthless esp. for relief pitchers. Gray inherited 11 runners 4 of them scored and those runs are not reflected in his ERA. His FIP is 6.58 btw, leading the Twins releivers.

Not "hate", he is just the worse reliever in the team right now...







Pardon my ignorance, but what's FIP? And how do you figure he's the worst reliever? I'm not just looking at his ERA, I'm looking at his avg against, the number of hits he's given up, and his RAR and WAR. All of those stats point to him performing considerably better than most of our pitchers.

Now, maybe he's pitching as good as he ever will and our other pitchers are capable of pitching much better, but do we bank on how people are performing RIGHT NOW or how they should/could be performing?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-06-2012, 07:14 PM
I really don't understand what has kept Anthony Slama out of the majors. The lack of respect they are giving him seems ignorant and child-like. His numbers have been phenomenal for 3 full seasons in Rochester. His minor league track record is pretty incredible as well as he's only had one year with an ERA over 3 (3.45). This year in particular really stand out too. He has a 15.1 K/9 ratio and a .63 ERA. I'm sure he feels the same way, but what more can he do?! The Twins are completely clueless when it comes to value. Maloney and Gray are not better RHP options from the pen. I think Slama could possibly be the closer the Twins want, but they don't even realize it.

Thrylos
05-06-2012, 07:23 PM
I really don't understand what has kept Anthony Slama out of the majors. The lack of respect they are giving him seems ignorant and child-like. .

Anthony is up to 15 point something K/9. He does not pitch to contact. The Twins' brain trust does not like that. Methinks (also) that they are ignorant and child like. And they need to go because the hurt the team.

So, to see Slama up in the majors (with the Twins) again, Gardy, Andy, Terry and Rantzy probably need to go...

DJSim22
05-06-2012, 07:30 PM
I wish someone could unravel the Slama mystery. Gardy must not like him or something. What could Slama get us in a trade since we refuse to call him up?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-06-2012, 07:41 PM
I wish someone could unravel the Slama mystery. Gardy must not like him or something. What could Slama get us in a trade since we refuse to call him up?

Good question. I know you're just speculating, but trading Slama would bite the Twins in the you-know-where. Although, I don't think the organization would care if he did flourish elsewhere. It happens all too often and they just shrug it off and say it was the right move at the time (generally when they sell low). They wheel and deal with the intentions of getting the best person, not the best player.

Thrylos
05-06-2012, 07:52 PM
trading Slama would bite the Twins in the you-know-where. .

Dirty little secret: Any MLB team could have picked Slama in the rule 5 draft the last 2 years for nothing. It did not happen. (this does not mean that I do not think that he is better than a few pen people in the Twins right now)

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-06-2012, 08:12 PM
You're kidding. They don't even have him on the 40 man roster?

spideyo
05-06-2012, 09:54 PM
Nope they don't. If I recall, he didn't pitch that well when he was up here last year did he?

CDog
05-06-2012, 11:01 PM
what's FIP?

Fielding Independent Pitching. It's on the same scale as ERA, but attempts to take fielding out of the equation and only look at things the pitcher controls.

Shane Wahl
05-07-2012, 12:02 AM
Nope they don't. If I recall, he didn't pitch that well when he was up here last year did he?

Slama has pitched 7 innings for the Twins in the past two years. While being fairly dominant in the minors every year. This is WEIRD non-moneyballesque ridiculous behavior. Like the exaggerated stereotypical scouts at the beginning of the movie who talk about the sound of the ball off the bat and all that other nonsense.

Give Slama 20 innings this year. It is way better than this Maloney and Gray fill-in nonsense. AGAIN, this team needs to stop filling-in with garbage players and promote prospects.

How's that Joe Thurston doing???

Mchans24
05-07-2012, 12:23 AM
Slama has walked the world every time he has been up. Manship just isn't very good. Gray has actually been a pleasant surprise in my book. Definitely has some velocity, which Slama and Manship lack. He has always had good stuff but has been injury prone. Needs to lower walks but I actually like him.