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James
05-04-2012, 01:07 PM
Gardy had an interview on ESPN 1500 today. He even hinted at some changes:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Gardenhire_hints_at_possible_changes_We_cant_conti nue_like_this050412

Ultima Ratio
05-04-2012, 01:20 PM
It's an interview like this, honest and forthright, that makes me like Gardy. I don't pay attention to most interviews with Gardy due to the canned and repetitive platitudes i.e., "the ball is coming out of his hand well," but I really don't think the anemia of this team is on Gardy. You are as good as the players you have. We have sporadic hitting and abysmal pitching. Last, I am very happy to hear that Mauer may move into the 2-hole.

P.S. I didn't see the first half of the no hitter. Did anyone try to bunt (span or casilla)? Why aren't they trying to bunt themselves on more often, especially when getting no-hit?

James
05-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Bunting to break up a no-hitter is in bad form. Unwritten rule of baseball.

JB_Iowa
05-04-2012, 01:51 PM
Bunting to break up a no-hitter is in bad form. Unwritten rule of baseball.

He was talking about bunting early in the game ... no problem with that even if it does turn out to me a no-hitter. (although he mixed it up with the second statement).

I also didn't see the game so I don't know if they attempted to bunt but in game chat, we've been questioning why they don't use the bunt more to try to get things going.

It'll be interesting to see the changes over the next few weeks.

James
05-04-2012, 01:56 PM
He was talking about bunting early in the game ... no problem with that even if it does turn out to me a no-hitter. (although he mixed it up with the second statement).

I also didn't see the game so I don't know if they attempted to bunt but in game chat, we've been questioning why they don't use the bunt more to try to get things going.

It'll be interesting to see the changes over the next few weeks.I figured that he meant early. I'm not against the idea of trying to get something going with a bunt here or there.

I agree, the message looked like it did get a little mixed up near the end.

CDog
05-04-2012, 02:13 PM
It's an interview like this, honest and forthright, that makes me like Gardy. I don't pay attention to most interviews with Gardy due to the canned and repetitive platitudes i.e., "the ball is coming out of his hand well," but I really don't think the anemia of this team is on Gardy. You are as good as the players you have. We have sporadic hitting and abysmal pitching. Last, I am very happy to hear that Mauer may move into the 2-hole.

P.S. I didn't see the first half of the no hitter. Did anyone try to bunt (span or casilla)? Why aren't they trying to bunt themselves on more often, especially when getting no-hit?

I think I remember an early bunt attempt, but I can't remember the details of who or when, so take that for what it's worth.

I actually was thinking of starting a thread or writing a blog post about the "unwritten rule" that one shouldn't at some point in a game. I'll give the Cliff Notes version now: I think it's a stupid unwritten rule.

ashburyjohn
05-04-2012, 02:15 PM
Last, I am very happy to hear that Mauer may move into the 2-hole.

It makes sense, for a hitter whose OBP remains more impressive than his SLG. But hitting the ball on the ground to second a lot isn't a recipe for success in that role, as often as Span has been reaching base this year.

TwinsGuy55422
05-04-2012, 03:07 PM
Jamey Carroll tried to bunt for a hit early in the game. I'm not sure, but I think it was the 4th inning. He bunted it a little bit too hard to the third baseman, otherwise it probably would have been a hit.

greengoblinrulz
05-04-2012, 03:12 PM
Carrol tried early but the score was 6-0 & 9-0 VERY early and then bunting is just not part of a teams repatoire.

Steve Lein
05-04-2012, 03:58 PM
Not bunting to break up a no-hitter is an "unwritten rule" in the sense if you're late in the game and it's out of reach.

A buddy of mine basically got lynched by the opposing team for breaking up their pitchers no-hitter with a bunt a few years ago, but the thing about it was, their team had 3 hits and 1 run on the scoreboard and it was the 7th inning... He was trying to get something going for our team to tie it up or get a win, so be ready for it or don't complain in a situation like that.

greengoblinrulz
05-04-2012, 04:14 PM
got a feeling that the moves that Gardy is talkin bout is the waivin of Clete Thomas/arrival of Komatsu.

MileHighTwinsFan
05-04-2012, 05:04 PM
Got to be the starting rotation. Hendriks needs to go down and Diamond needs to come up. Liriano should get one more chance and if he can't get it done - he needs to dealt, even if it is bargain basement. We can then give Swarzak a chance and bring up Slama or Guerra.

Lineup - all for Mauer moving into the two slot, moving Carroll to utility role and bringing up Dozier - why not give the guy a chance. Drop Maloney.

darin617
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
Gardy had an interview on ESPN 1500 today. He even hinted at some changes:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Gardenhire_hints_at_possible_changes_We_cant_conti nue_like_this050412

The Twins need more players that slide into 1st base Punto style and then they will win...

darin617
05-04-2012, 07:15 PM
Bunting to break up a no-hitter is in bad form. Unwritten rule of baseball.
But the double steal with the Angels up 5-0 must be ok in your little unwritten rules of baseball. Especially again a team that is struggling so bad.

Ultima Ratio
05-04-2012, 07:23 PM
I guess I am (and was) hoping to see different approaches (bunting) in order to get on base from our speed/contact guys. I'd especially like to see more of it when you need to make the pitcher move to get him out of his groove -- I guess that means while getting no hit. I can see why bunting is bad form if the game is out of reach, though I'd personally never argue for this gentlemen's agreement. It's like the so-called bad form of running up the score in football. I don't care. It's the defenses' job to stop an offense... that doesn't change from kick off to the final whistle. I'll also say that a foul is a foul and refs shouldn't change that at the end of a basketball game, for the same reason that umpires shouldn't change the strike zone at the end of the game or for different pitchers -- unless playing the yankees, then of course one should call foul all twins' hits no more than 2 feet within the chalk. If a pitcher is going to pitch a no-hitter, he should earn it, and if that means defending against the bunt (which is a legitimate offensive strategy and approach), so be it.... earn it.

mike wants wins
05-04-2012, 07:46 PM
BS on the stupid unwritten rules of baseball. If you can't stop the bunt, your problem, not the hitters.

Montecore
05-04-2012, 08:52 PM
The game was on here (L.A.) so unfortunately I saw it. I once broke up a no-hitter in Little League with a bunt hit. The way they're playing now - nothing would be out of line.

twinsnorth49
05-05-2012, 02:23 AM
I guess I am (and was) hoping to see different approaches (bunting) in order to get on base from our speed/contact guys. I'd especially like to see more of it when you need to make the pitcher move to get him out of his groove -- I guess that means while getting no hit. I can see why bunting is bad form if the game is out of reach, though I'd personally never argue for this gentlemen's agreement. It's like the so-called bad form of running up the score in football. I don't care. It's the defenses' job to stop an offense... that doesn't change from kick off to the final whistle. I'll also say that a foul is a foul and refs shouldn't change that at the end of a basketball game, for the same reason that umpires shouldn't change the strike zone at the end of the game or for different pitchers -- unless playing the yankees, then of course one should call foul all twins' hits no more than 2 feet within the chalk. If a pitcher is going to pitch a no-hitter, he should earn it, and if that means defending against the bunt (which is a legitimate offensive strategy and approach), so be it.... earn it.


BS on the stupid unwritten rules of baseball. If you can't stop the bunt, your problem, not the hitters.

Pretty funny stuff, a lot of tough talk from the peanut gallery who won't have to be the next guy up to take a fastball in the back. If it was a close game then it's 50/50, that game was never close, man up and get a legitimate hit

twinsnorth49
05-05-2012, 02:26 AM
Have any of you ever read the "The Baseball Codes"? great read, a collection of interviews from players on all of the insane unwritten rules of baseball. One from Jack Morris about a guy stealing signs from second and his response is priceless.

glunn
05-05-2012, 02:35 AM
The game was on here (L.A.) so unfortunately I saw it. I once broke up a no-hitter in Little League with a bunt hit. The way they're playing now - nothing would be out of line.

Be glad that you were not at the game. I fought 2 hours of traffic to get to Anaheim for the misery of watching the Twins get outhit 15 to 0.

Ultima Ratio
05-05-2012, 11:19 AM
tough talk... from the peanut gallery who won't have to be the next guy up to take a fastball in the back?

If it was a close game then it's 50/50, that game was never close, man up and get a legitimate hit


Tough talk? Peanut Gallery? Fastball in the back? -- What are you talking about?

Do you realize that by abiding by this 'rule' the defense knows you won't bunt, therefore making in even harder to get a hit through in infield. The entire IF, especially the corner IF spots can play way back, cover the lines with greater range, thereby making it all the more difficult to get a 'legitimate' hit. Why would one want to self-impose rules that make it more difficult to do his job?

Is it impolite to fake a bunt and pull it back? Fake 3rd to 1st pick off? Hit for power when up by more than 6 runs? You see this as tough talk? Seems like self-imposed shenanigans to me, high up in the peanut gallery... where are you by the way? ;)

Riverbrian
05-05-2012, 12:17 PM
I'd abide by the unwritten rule. I woud not attempt to bunt to break up the no-no.

However, If I had a rabbit at the plate like Casilla or Revere I would attempt to bunt for a hit with them. A lot and I mean A LOT. Anything to draw the Corners In... Anything to get the pitcher thinking about what side he is going to cover instead of pitching comfortably. Anything to utilize their speed in unique ways. I think the Twins need to utilize this part of the game a lot more.

Just not in the no-hitter situation.

twinsnorth49
05-05-2012, 12:31 PM
I'd abide by the unwritten rule. I woud not attempt to bunt to break up the no-no.

However, If I had a rabbit at the plate like Casilla or Revere I would attempt to bunt for a hit with them. A lot and I mean A LOT. Anything to draw the Corners In... Anything to get the pitcher thinking about what side he is going to cover instead of pitching comfortably. Anything to utilize their speed in unique ways. I think the Twins need to utilize this part of the game a lot

Just not in the no-hitter situation.

Exactly, well said, thank you.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-05-2012, 12:32 PM
You don't bunt when you are down 9-0.

If its 1-0,2-0 etc then sure, do what you need to do. I would be personally ashamed to be a Twins fan if they had Carroll try to bunt in the 9th inning of that game. To say the "unwritten rules of baseball" are BS basically makes you look like some ignorant fan that A. Has never played and B. Has no respect for the game. The "no steals up 5" rule is a little grey though, I'd argue that 5 runs isn't enough, but if you are up by 7+ you shouldn't be taking extra bases and stealing bags.

Interesting note: we were losing a baseball game last weekend 11-2 (ouch) and had a guy steal against us, you better believe the next batter got thrown at, and the other team was perfectly fine with this, in fact they were only upset with the idiot who stole 2nd.

Ultima Ratio
05-05-2012, 12:32 PM
I'd abide by the unwritten rule. I woud not attempt to bunt to break up the no-no.

However, If I had a rabbit at the plate like Casilla or Revere I would attempt to bunt for a hit with them. A lot and I mean A LOT. Anything to draw the Corners In... Anything to get the pitcher thinking about what side he is going to cover instead of pitching comfortably. Anything to utilize their speed in unique ways. I think the Twins need to utilize this part of the game a lot more.

Just not in the no-hitter situation.

Serious question: What inning of the no-hitter does this 'rule' take effect? 7-8th? Even if it's a 1-0 game, bottom of the ninth? I really don't know and wondering how defined the rule is?

twinsnorth49
05-05-2012, 12:35 PM
Tough talk? Peanut Gallery? Fastball in the back? -- What are you talking about?

Do you realize that by abiding by this 'rule' the defense knows you won't bunt, therefore making in even harder to get a hit through in infield. The entire IF, especially the corner IF spots can play way back, cover the lines with greater range, thereby making it all the more difficult to get a 'legitimate' hit. Why would one want to self-impose rules that make it more difficult to do his job?




Is it impolite to fake a bunt and pull it back? Fake 3rd to 1st pick off? Hit for power when up by more than 6 runs? You see this as tough talk? Seems like self-imposed shenanigans to me, high up in the peanut gallery... where are you by the way? ;)

Most of this is jibberish but my point was, if you want to bunt to break up a no hitter there is a good chance the next guy up is taking one for the team. My guess is that, if that were you, you wouldn't support it so much.

My tag name gives a clue as to where I am, not sure why that matters.

Ultima Ratio
05-05-2012, 12:51 PM
I don't know, I played tennis throughout college and (C/3B in high school) and respect the rules of honor/politeness in golf and tennis... and yeah, I would not bunt in a blow out (late) either... I'm just trying to flesh out the rule. I don't think it makes sense in the same way that these rules do make sense in tennis. For example, it's impolite to applaud when your opponent (or person you're not routing for) makes and unforced error, i.e. hitting the ball in the net. This is because you or the player you are cheering for didn't earn the point (a winner), but won it due to an error -- you are only suppose to cheer for someone, and never cheer against someone (like in golf). This makes sense to me, but there is not rule that when you are down 5-2, 5-2 you should stop hitting drop shots, serve and volley and just pound groundstrokes at the guy. Does this make sense?

twinsnorth49
05-05-2012, 12:58 PM
I don't know, I played tennis throughout college and (C/3B in high school) and respect the rules of honor/politeness in golf and tennis... and yeah, I would not bunt in a blow out (late) either... I'm just trying to flesh out the rule. I don't think it makes sense in the same way that these rules do make sense in tennis. For example, it's impolite to applaud when your opponent (or person you're not routing for) makes and unforced error, i.e. hitting the ball in the net. This is because you or the player you are cheering for didn't earn the point (a winner), but won it due to an error -- you are only suppose to cheer for someone, and never cheer against someone (like in golf). This makes sense to me, but there is not rule that when you are down 5-2, 5-2 you should stop hitting drop shots, serve and volley and just pound groundstrokes at the guy. Does this make sense?

Yes. that makes sense, I didn't know we were talking about sense. I'm just saying it's kind of the code, for most guys, not all, in fact it's more and more generally regarded as "Old school". I guess I like old school baseball. I didn't say it makes sense.

You should read the book I referenced earlier, some of the stuff in there is just cracked and you get the impression that most of the guys don't really buy it but they don't question it, it's just the way.
Pretty funny.

Ultima Ratio
05-05-2012, 01:24 PM
The following is not directed at anyone, just a reflection (that I reserve the right to be wrong about).

Just to be clear about the rule/consequences of the rule: when getting no hit, you should make it easier to continue to be no hit. After all, it's the polite thing to do and you might get thrown at if you don't believe it's your obligation to make it easy on the pitcher to embarrass you.

There are times when throwing at a guy is not justified, but just a whining/temper tantrum by the pitcher. I think this would be one of those times. If you were the next batter (HBP) and asked the pitcher 'why'd ya do that?'
What possible rebuttal could the pitcher give without sounding childish/whinny? "you weren't supposed to do that?"

Furthermore, say it's a 7-0 no-hitter in the bottom of the 8th... I'm guessing that most would think the rule applies then.

Span bunts his way on, and Carroll get's beaned in retaliation. YOu've got two on, 0 out and Mauer up. It's possible to win this game yet, no? So we'd have to be talking about a 9th inning 10-0 no hitter to be sure of a loss... even then, I think this rule is silly... just my opinion (and reasons)... you don't have to agree.

Riverbrian
05-05-2012, 02:09 PM
The following is not directed at anyone, just a reflection (that I reserve the right to be wrong about).

Just to be clear about the rule/consequences of the rule: when getting no hit, you should make it easier to continue to be no hit. After all, it's the polite thing to do and you might get thrown at if you don't believe it's your obligation to make it easy on the pitcher to embarrass you.


No-Hitters are big moments. Tomorrow Blackburn may be tossing one through 6 innings(I obviously used Blackburn for example purposes). Nobody is happy if Blackie loses a no-hitter because Velencia is playing too deep at 3B and no one would be happy if Weaver lost his because Trumbo is playing too deep.

No one wants a cheapie to break up a no-no. If Carroll trys it succussfully or unsuccussfully... Mauer will wear it.

Here's another unwritten rule in reverse. You don't intentionally walk Mauer during a no-no because you think he has the best chance of breaking it up.

It's a big moment... Don't tarnish it.

Ultima Ratio
05-05-2012, 05:23 PM
No one wants a cheapie to break up a no-no.
It's a big moment... Don't tarnish it.

Well, I see several routine fly balls find the seats in right field at Yankees stadium. Those are cheap home runs IMO. But if that cheap home run breaks up a no hitter it's cool because it's a home run. If Casilla swings and dinks a nubber off the corner of the plate up the 3rd base line...and beats the throw because he's fast and hustling, I consider this a (or at least as) legitimate hit. Why reward the sluggers but not the speed/contact guys? They have different skills and approaches that make them successful at getting on base and scoring runs. In other words, a hit is a hit, or there are all kinds of cheap hits (bunts,nubbers, texas leaguers, fly balls where the OF worries about the fence and looses the ball and home runs) that tarnish the No hit effort, not just a bunt.

jimbo92107
05-05-2012, 06:39 PM
It's good to see Ron Gardenhire man up and assume responsibility for this team's miserable performance. However, the recent history of his management style indicates to me that mouthing the words of accountability are not sufficient. It strains credulity to think that so many otherwise good baseball players cannot perform well at the plate for the Minnesota Twins. I keep thinking back to what David Ortiz said, that when he would hit a ball really hard, Tom Kelly would burst from the dugout shouting, "Hey, hey!" as if it was wrong to swing hard.

There is a fine line between plate discipline and timidity, and it looks to me like this Twins team has crossed that line. Instead of looking eager to smash anything in their hitting zone, these guys look worried about swinging at anything outside the strike zone. If you think of the pitcher/batter relationship as a game of cat and mouse, timidity is what instantly makes you the mouse, and we all know who wins that game.

Consider the Tampa Rays. Their guys have the right attitude. They look to jump all over anything in their hitting zone, which is different from the strike zone. Batting practice is supposed to be about learning to expand the area of pitches you can smash. You get your elbows up so you can smash a high ball, then adjust down for lower pitches. Was it a strike? Doesn't matter; the only question is, can you smash it?

Now obviously it's harder to smash everything a major league pitcher throws at you. They vary the speed from mid-90's to mid-70's, throw the ball with various spins, etc. Worst of all, they're so rude, they won't even tell you what they're about to throw.

Sort of. Great hitters know things that shift the advantage back in their direction. They can study statistical tendencies, and they can study video of a pitcher's delivery. They look for tip offs that reveal what's coming. A couple years ago Francisco Liriano was tipping his pitches so obviously that I wrote several rants about it. Standing on the mound, he would lower his right shoulder. Here comes a slider. Raised shoulder = fastball. Not too surprisingly, he was getting killed, because everybody (except the Twins pitching coach) was having a wonderful time reading his pitches. It's great when you know what's coming.

For pitchers that don't flash a neon sign like Liriano, batters are stuck with tendencies and pitch recognition. Again, some pitchers are easier to read than others. Some guys raise their elbow higher when they go into their fastball motion, or their knee. Clever pitchers learn to make their delivery look the same for all their pitches, differing only by the grip and wrist action right at the release point. Some of them change their facial expression for a particular pitch. It can get subtle. Or not.

Anyway, none of these savvy tricks work if you're timid at the plate. The mouse never beats the cat, and this Twins team will not win 60 games. A team attitude change doesn't happen until you change the source of the attitude. It ain't coming from the players.