PDA

View Full Version : Is Twins Organization Broken?



travistwinstalk
05-02-2012, 09:22 AM
I had that exact exchange on Twitter and I may be Nieve in thinking that no the Twins org is not broken. The Twins have been in the playoffs 6 of the last 10 years. Two years ago if you would have done a poll of this question the results would have been way different than if you asked it today. My view that the Twins are going through a little rough patch, but this is a process that the organization has to go through. All mid to small market teams have about a 5 year window to win a world series before they need to hit the restart button and struggle for a bit. After last year the Twins hit the reset button by letting Joe Nathan, Michael Cuddyer, and Jason Kubel leave as free agents. I think it was smart to sign affordable vets to short term contracts so that the Twins prospects will have time to work out the kinks at the minor league level and not at the big league level like players in 1982 and 2000 were forced to do. You have Joe Mauer as the center of the rebuilding of the Twins organization. Add Liam Hendriks and Chris Parmelee who will be solid contributers going forward and you got the start of things. Add in Kyle Gibson, Joe Benson, Brian Dozier, Deolis Guerra, and possibly Scott Diamond helping out in 2013. Then you got Aaron Hicks, Alex Wimmers, BJ Hermsen, Adrian Salcedo, and the number 2 pick in the draft to help out in 2014. So by 2014 Twins should have the core that should help them win division titles again. My synthesis is that Twins fans are too impatient and don't realize that this is just part of the process. They were spoiled after goiing to the playoffs every year for a while that if they have a couple down years they want gardy's head and the earth is exploding. In addition to those prospects after 2012 and 2013 the Twins will much more financial flexibilty to improve the team. Three rough years is small potatoes compared to the 9 years that the Twins went through after blowing up team after the 1992 season. I know fans are going to flip out anyway all I am saying is sometimes it is necessary to break something down to build it back up and that is what the Twins are doing so please calm down.

mike wants wins
05-02-2012, 09:40 AM
It is not the fans fault that they have had zero legit prospects come up in three years. This is not about fans, this is about the twins.

Top Gun
05-02-2012, 09:40 AM
You are crazy too, there is no reason for it! Bank the money and screw the fans.

travistwinstalk
05-02-2012, 09:45 AM
if you want to be a fan of a team that spends spends spends be a Yankee fan. I am proud to be a fan of a team that develops. And yeah some prospects haven't worked out, but that is part of the process. The future of the organization is bright whether people want to admit it or not.

mike wants wins
05-02-2012, 09:47 AM
The Twins cut $15MM from payroll this year, third year in a new stadium, when the average payroll went up by $9MM. Please don't use straw man arguments to make your point. No one here is asking them to spend like the Yankees.

cr9617
05-02-2012, 09:48 AM
I don't disagree with your overall point, but I think you are a giving this next group of "prospects" far too much credit. All of the names mentioned are in no way sure things, and most likely marginal Major Leaguers at best.

DAM DC Twins Fans
05-02-2012, 09:52 AM
Torii, Cuddyer, Morneau, Mauer--the nucleus of the Twins teams from 5 years ago were all Twins draft picks.

Lately, the Twins picks have been poor--Garza probably the best of the recent ones. The trades have been worse. Nothing to show for Johan, the wasted trade with Tampa Bay, the disaster for Crapps. Conveniently we can blame those of Billy Smith. Now the Twins need to get back to developing prospects with better results than we have gotten from Plouffe and Revere so far. It would be nice if Ryan could pull off a trade or two.

Yes, the potential to contend in 2014 is there with Dozier, Diamond, Gibson, Benson, Dinkleman, Hicks, etc. But they have to turn out better than Trevor Plouffe.

travistwinstalk
05-02-2012, 09:53 AM
No prospect is a sure thing but I like their chances. Twins overspent in 2010 and 2011 and came back to earth to what a mid market usually spends. I will take a 100 million dollar payroll and its way more than I ever thought the Twins would go to. The Twins overspent to try to win and now they are back to where most midmarket teams are.

Boom Boom
05-02-2012, 09:57 AM
The Twins turnarounds in 87 and 02 both corresponded with an influx of new talent and a new manager. TK took over late in 86 and Gardy took the helm before 02. Is it possible that a fresh new team needs a fresh new voice in the dugout? Do you think that young, inexperienced players might learn better from a manager who is also new, and potentially more relatable to them?

travistwinstalk
05-02-2012, 10:01 AM
Bobby Cox was able to relate to guys in different generations. The problem is not the manager it is about these prospects turning out and I have no doubt that most of them will and by 2014 the Twins will be back in the playoffs.

JB_Iowa
05-02-2012, 10:03 AM
I believe the organization stagnating -- and so yes, for me that makes it broken.

I strongly believe that SOME turnover in management positions (both in the front office and on the field) is a good thing. But instead, all we see from the Twins is recycling. Gardenhire simply shifts coaches around a little. They bring back Terry Ryan and Wayne Krivsky in the front office. But they never seem to bring in someone with new ideas and a fresh perspective. I'm not saying that they should have had wholesale changes -- just that they needed to keep things fresh to keep them out of ruts and from a sense of complacency.

Stability is a good thing. Stagnancy is not -- it becomes a stinking pool. The only big changes in the last few years were in the field staff in Rochester -- and that seems to be only because Rochester ownership demanded it.

I KNOW these people all like working together but you need new perspectives and energy to keep an organization moving forward. That hasn't happened with the Twins. The organization IS broken -- and it goes a lot deeper than won/loss records.

Boom Boom
05-02-2012, 10:11 AM
Bobby Cox was able to relate to guys in different generations. The problem is not the manager it is about these prospects turning out and I have no doubt that most of them will and by 2014 the Twins will be back in the playoffs.

I didn't say necessarily that the problem was the manager, but I'm willing to bet that Gardy was closer to the guys on that 02 team than he is with the players he has now. Gardy established himself as a manager by building off TK's mentorship but also by fitting himself to the players he had at the time, rather than fitting the players to his style of managing which is what I see him doing now.

deanlambrecht
05-02-2012, 10:23 AM
I believe the organization stagnating -- and so yes, for me that makes it broken.

I strongly believe that SOME turnover in management positions (both in the front office and on the field) is a good thing. But instead, all we see from the Twins is recycling. Gardenhire simply shifts coaches around a little. They bring back Terry Ryan and Wayne Krivsky in the front office. But they never seem to bring in someone with new ideas and a fresh perspective. I'm not saying that they should have had wholesale changes -- just that they needed to keep things fresh to keep them out of ruts and from a sense of complacency.

Stability is a good thing. Stagnancy is not -- it becomes a stinking pool. The only big changes in the last few years were in the field staff in Rochester -- and that seems to be only because Rochester ownership demanded it.

I KNOW these people all like working together but you need new perspectives and energy to keep an organization moving forward. That hasn't happened with the Twins. The organization IS broken -- and it goes a lot deeper than won/loss records.

I generally agree with this assessment. Although at this point, failure to make incremental changes over time have led to such stagnation that I do think it's time for a wholesale change. From team President down to minor league bat boys, I think it's time to blow it up. New front office, manager/coach team, new scouting team, and load up on prospects, trade/release every player who's not a prospect and has any value that exceeds being a placeholder until prospects are ready and we can reasonably compete again. Ugly, yes. Also necessary, IMO.

nicksaviking
05-02-2012, 10:25 AM
You can't "develop" 92 MPH control pitchers into strikeout fueled aces, anymore than you can develop Ben Revere into a power hitter. Last year the Twins finally acknowledged this by drafting power arms early and trading for arms like Hoey and Oliveros. They're late to the party in believing strikeouts win games, and so far they are not as adept at identifying good power arms as the rest of the league is.

silverslugger
05-02-2012, 10:27 AM
I also think you're giving this next generation of prospects too much credit. I fear they end up producing at the MLB level more like our prospects of the 90's than our prospects this past decade. I consider the current batch at the AA/AAA level and those just reaching the majors to be more suspect than prospect. I think our group at the two A levels have more upside than those above them. I hope the group of Parmelee/Hendricks/Benson/Dozier etc. prove me wrong!

JB_Iowa
05-02-2012, 10:33 AM
deanlambrecht, I tend to agree with you on the need for wholesale changes at this point. I think they need to bring in someone at the top with baseball experience and a thick skin who only wants the job for 3 or 4 years. That person would be empowered to review all job performances within the organization and make appropriate personnel changes. (Okay, within the organization, I'd give him czar powers).

Not an easy job but, at least in the world outside baseball, there are people who relish that type of challenge (especially for the right money). I don't think you can just say fire everybody and blow it all up but I do think someone from the outside needs to be looking at the big picture and blowing up a lot of different parts. The "smart bomb" approach. Often the reorganizer doesn't/can't stay with the organization but by doing the dirty work of reorganizing, he makes it easier for his (or her) successor.

Top Gun
05-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Gardy slept through spring training, he didn't have the team ready to play. The farm is broke and it will take 5 years to rebuild, so the fans build a new park and the Twins put a
bad product on the field and pocket the money. The fans will be gone by July and management soon after.

jimbo92107
05-02-2012, 10:37 AM
Meanwhile, Terry Francona is on vacation...

Ron Gardenhire is not a bad manager, but he's not great with young players. A guy that can inspire young players is what this team needs in the coming rebuilding years. Either Francona, or even Tom Brunanski would provide a more vigorous, aggressive approach that appeals to rising baseball players and the fans that watch them play.

That, and the Washington Nationals starting pitchers would put this team on a winning track... ;-)

nicksaviking
05-02-2012, 10:42 AM
Unfortunately Brunanski has said he wants to coach, but he has no desire to be the manager.

USAFChief
05-02-2012, 11:51 AM
I can't see this organization turning around until the pitching improves by quite a bit. And I don't think that pitching currently exists anywhere in the organization, nor does the will or smarts to go out and purchase it. That leads me to the simple truth that no matter what happens with the current positions player prospects, there is no quick "rebuild" on the horizon.

whydidnt
05-02-2012, 12:21 PM
I think that like most organizations that have some success, the success went to their heads and ruined things. They figured their philosophy and system was so good that they didn't have to adjust and if a little of something was good, then a lot of it must be great. We saw this in the types of players they drafted and how they developed them. Trying to force every pitcher to be more concerned with throwing strikes than getting outs, trying to get every hitter to go the other way, rather than pull one over the fence. In short they became arrogant about the "Twins Way". It appears they recognized this in the 2011 draft, but we really haven't seen changes in the field staff to also reflect any change in organizational philosophy. If you want to give credit to Gardenhire and his staff for their past success than you also have to allow them to share the blame for the current state of affairs. Over the last 3 years, we have not seen young pitchers or hitters show any incremental improvement from year to year. For a team that is all about building from within, this is critical. The fact that the Twins lost 99 games last year and didn't make a single change in the field staff leads me to believe the organization is broken to some extent. You can certainly say the staff isn't responsible all the injuries and lack of depth, but the fact is the team was absolutely terrible and the players just didn't seem prepared to play at the major league level.

deanlambrecht
05-02-2012, 12:40 PM
Meanwhile, Terry Francona is on vacation...

Ron Gardenhire is not a bad manager, but he's not great with young players. A guy that can inspire young players is what this team needs in the coming rebuilding years. Either Francona, or even Tom Brunanski would provide a more vigorous, aggressive approach that appeals to rising baseball players and the fans that watch them play.

That, and the Washington Nationals starting pitchers would put this team on a winning track... ;-)

I started wondering about Francona this morning, actually. I wonder if he'd accept the MUCH smaller salary for a manager that the Pohlad's will be willing to cough up.

@ JB_Iowa, you're absolutely right, and I was overly broad in my post. There are elements of our organization that should be maintained, no doubt, and a smart bomb approach is the right way to think about it. Nice post.

Seth Stohs
05-02-2012, 03:07 PM
Gardy slept through spring training, he didn't have the team ready to play.

What does a statement like this even mean? From all reports, he was more and more intense. They made some tough decisions. They kept people healthy and got at bats. I guess someone will have to explain this one to me.

Highabove
05-02-2012, 04:05 PM
No prospect is a sure thing but I like their chances. Twins overspent in 2010 and 2011 and came back to earth to what a mid market usually spends. I will take a 100 million dollar payroll and its way more than I ever thought the Twins would go to. The Twins overspent to try to win and now they are back to where most midmarket teams are.

The Twins did not over spend in 2010! The revenue for the Twins in 2010 was 213 Million Dollars. St. Peter repeatedly stated that the Twins would spend 50% of Revenue towards payroll. For much of the first Season, the Twins spent less then that.
By the way, Ticket prices are way more then I ever thought the Twins would go to. (5th highest in Baseball)

Boom Boom
05-02-2012, 04:28 PM
Gardy has the reputation of being a good manager, and he's earned that. But you can't manage on reputation alone, and if the Twins' downward spiral continues he should absolutely be held accountable.

one_eyed_jack
05-02-2012, 04:38 PM
What does a statement like this even mean? From all reports, he was more and more intense. They made some tough decisions. They kept people healthy and got at bats. I guess someone will have to explain this one to me.

---The explanation is that Gardy-hating is emotion-based, not fact-based.

clutterheart
05-02-2012, 04:39 PM
Twins are bad because of Bad Drafting bad player development and bad ownership - its terrible they would not use the resource of target field to correct their other mistakes.

It has nothing to do with Gardy and nothing to do with a broken organization. Just the way it goes

JB_Iowa
05-02-2012, 05:18 PM
Twins are bad because of Bad Drafting bad player development and bad ownership

Sure indicates a broken organization to me.

twinsnorth49
05-02-2012, 05:38 PM
Look for scapegoats all you like, we don't need a better manager, we need better players.

whydidnt
05-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Look for scapegoats all you like, we don't need a better manager, we need better players.
Of course, as the saying goes, it's a lot easier to replace 1 manager than 25 players, though.

striker_86
05-02-2012, 06:48 PM
I can't see this organization turning around until the pitching improves by quite a bit. And I don't think that pitching currently exists anywhere in the organization, nor does the will or smarts to go out and purchase it. That leads me to the simple truth that no matter what happens with the current positions player prospects, there is no quick "rebuild" on the horizon.

It all starts with the pitching. As soon as Santana left we were in trouble. The team assumed Liriano would emerge as that ace we needed to anchor a rotation and win playoff games. We need to spend the money on a #1 starter, even if it means breaking the bank on it. It was great back in 04/05 when we would roll into Yankee stadium and pitch great. And that was an offense that included everyday players like Blanco, Mientkiewicz, Rivas (none of which hit over .260 for the season). Granted we did have much more power hitters in guys like Jones, Hunter and Koskie. But it all starts with pitching. Get an ace and find a rotation thats going to get you wins no matter how your offense produces....worry about the rest later.

darin617
05-02-2012, 06:52 PM
if you want to be a fan of a team that spends spends spends be a Yankee fan. I am proud to be a fan of a team that develops. And yeah some prospects haven't worked out, but that is part of the process. The future of the organization is bright whether people want to admit it or not.

So what have the Twins developed in the last 4 years that can be viewed as a success?

adjacent
05-02-2012, 07:14 PM
It all starts with the pitching. As soon as Santana left we were in trouble. The team assumed Liriano would emerge as that ace we needed to anchor a rotation and win playoff games. We need to spend the money on a #1 starter, even if it means breaking the bank on it. It was great back in 04/05 when we would roll into Yankee stadium and pitch great. And that was an offense that included everyday players like Blanco, Mientkiewicz, Rivas (none of which hit over .260 for the season). Granted we did have much more power hitters in guys like Jones, Hunter and Koskie. But it all starts with pitching. Get an ace and find a rotation thats going to get you wins no matter how your offense produces....worry about the rest later.
That is why I am not mad at managers, general managers or players. They are who they are. But if the ownership had decided to keep payroll and invest in pitching, this would be a decent team today. They decided to pocket the 15 million (on the 3rd year of a city subsidized stadium, come on!) and this is the result, No wonder that attendance is down.

powrwrap
05-02-2012, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Top Gun Gardy slept through spring training, he didn't have the team ready to play.



What does a statement like this even mean? From all reports, he was more and more intense. They made some tough decisions. They kept people healthy and got at bats. I guess someone will have to explain this one to me.

Here's some more quotes from Top Gun:


Gardy got the Twins going now. Great job!


I expect the Twins to win the central. There pitching will be fine.


Trade Span for Inge now if you hurry!


Don't need great pitching, Capps and sp can get the job done.


Is this the idoit board or what?

Highabove
05-02-2012, 08:31 PM
Last year, 30 million dollars came off the Books. 3 million dollars of that was used to upgrade the starting pitching.

Take that as you wish.

Top Gun
05-02-2012, 09:36 PM
Fowrwarp, some of this sarcram. Gardy is a good manager, but he does sit on his hands alot and wait for his players to play , so does
his coaches. Pitchers weren't ready. You can't have a lineup of Plouffe, Parmelee, Thomas, ect. and expect to score runs. Even Verlander
and Kershaw lost today on good teams. You can't go out and trade for pitching, plus you have notting to trade. No the central is not
that great, but they all can hit and better than the Twins. It was management that let most of there good hitters go and are to blame
the most. The Twins need direction!

striker_86
05-02-2012, 11:16 PM
Fowrwarp, some of this sarcram. Gardy is a good manager, but he does sit on his hands alot and wait for his players to play , so does
his coaches. Pitchers weren't ready. You can't have a lineup of Plouffe, Parmelee, Thomas, ect. and expect to score runs. Even Verlander
and Kershaw lost today on good teams. You can't go out and trade for pitching, plus you have notting to trade. No the central is not
that great, but they all can hit and better than the Twins. It was management that let most of there good hitters go and are to blame
the most. The Twins need direction!

it all starts with pitching, get a reliable rotation and we can worry about the offense when we are losing 2-1 games

righty8383
05-03-2012, 12:09 AM
This organization is absolutely broken. Sure teams go through down seasons, but last season was an absolute disaster and this season looks like it could be worse. Terry Ryan and the scouting department are largely responsible for the terrible drafting from 2003-2007. Lets not forget Bill Smith and those disasterous trades. Can it be fixed? Sure, with good drafting (particularly this year), and of course development, but I'm not confident that the powers that be will get it done.

Gardy and the coaching staff are burnt out and they seem to have lost the team. It happens, rarely can a manager be effective for 10 years or more. I appreciate Gardy for his contributions to this team over the years, but its time for a change. I can't say for sure if that will help, I just don't foresee the Twins getting back to contention with him and TR running things. I just think its time to clean house and get some new blood.

Fanatic Jack
05-03-2012, 12:18 AM
You were optimistic about pitcher Liam Hendriks as being one of those great new prospects. Cross him off your list because he is terrible.

glunn
05-03-2012, 12:40 AM
You were optimistic about pitcher Liam Hendriks as being one of those great new prospects. Cross him off your list because he is terrible.

I was at tonight's game, and Hendricks had velocity but limited movement. It also seemed like most of the early hits were grounders that found the gaps, and the fielding was less than stellar. I am not ready to give up on Hendricks, but he did not look good tonight.

As for the organization being broken, I hope that those posters who are touting the minor league prospects turn out to be correct. Also, based on what I saw tonight, I won't be surprised if we get the #1 pick next year.

tpb8
05-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Sadly, the quickest way to a rebuild for the Twins is to take their current talent (Mauer, Morneau, Span & Willingham) and trade them for pitching or MLB-ready prospects. I don't see any other way. We have no SP prospects in the pipeline, save for possibly Gibson next season. How are we going to suddenly infuse the the team with pitching talent?

Do the Twins really need to continue paying Mauer & Morneau over 30 millions dollars a year to finish last? Keeping them on the team is pointless. It puts us in between rebuilding and trying to contend. The Twins need to commit to a full-on rebuild. I like Span, but he's a tradeable asset. We need to move him while his value is high. Willingham as well.

The casual fans will scream about this and talk about the new stadium & trading our best players and getting rid of a local hero, but the smart baseball fan will see that there's no other way to infuse talent into this organization. Management can't afford to sit on their hands and try and rebuild this thing through drafts and development. It's too long a process. We need good young arms now. Attendance is already way down. The Twins are the worst team in baseball and are following up the disaster of 2011 with something even worse. Can they really wait until 2015 to give the fans hope again?

nicksaviking
05-03-2012, 08:12 AM
Unless the Twins eat most of Mauer and Morneau's salary, they won't be getting any ace-type prospects in return for them. At this point, why would the Twins even consider trading for back-end of the rotation arms. That's all the organziation has now.

JB_Iowa
05-03-2012, 08:45 AM
I was going to pose this question in a separate thread but will ask it here to follow up on tpb8's comment. Does anyone else think that Mauer's starting streak to open the season was any indication that he is open to a trade?

I realize that he was also probably trying to rebuild his reputation as a whole but this seemed to me to be going a little beyond that. Almost as though he were trying to produce his best showing early in the season to try to position himself for a favorable trade. In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

I do think that Mauer wants to win a championship. It's hard not to recall the "promises" for a competitive team when the new Mauer contract was inked. Seems to me that Mauer, the Twins organization and a lot of fans may be a lot more open to a trade at this point.

So here's hoping that he can somehow manage a strong season and increase his trade value.

jeffk
05-03-2012, 08:56 AM
There's nothing wrong with having a down, rebuilding year - that's normal for mid-market teams. What is a problem is fielding a team that is so terrible nobody can hardly watch them. While rebuilding you don't need to be above .500, but you do need to play respectable baseball. Once everyone stops watching, then you're out of money anyways, so rebuilding becomes impossible and the whole thing collapses.

twinswon1991
05-03-2012, 08:58 AM
Terrible management, terrible mlb team, and no help in the minors =no hope. Welcome to Pirates baseball folks.

StormJH1
05-03-2012, 09:06 AM
I was going to pose this question in a separate thread but will ask it here to follow up on tpb8's comment. Does anyone else think that Mauer's starting streak to open the season was any indication that he is open to a trade?

I realize that he was also probably trying to rebuild his reputation as a whole but this seemed to me to be going a little beyond that. Almost as though he were trying to produce his best showing early in the season to try to position himself for a favorable trade. In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

I do think that Mauer wants to win a championship. It's hard not to recall the "promises" for a competitive team when the new Mauer contract was inked. Seems to me that Mauer, the Twins organization and a lot of fans may be a lot more open to a trade at this point.

So here's hoping that he can somehow manage a strong season and increase his trade value.

I refuse to believe Mauer will ever be traded by this organization. I think a lot of the frustration thrown at him is not necessarily about him as a player (he is, after all, a very good player), but the fact that he is bulletproof in this town and virtually had this organization held hostage with his contract, the new stadium, and the perception that even in the Metrodome, Mauer's popularity, alone, probably sells 2,500 - 7,500 tickets a night. The fact that has them hostage with a smile and a .320 batting average (instead of complaining to the media or openly demanding the money), doesn't change the financial reality of what his contract means for this team.

As for the overall organization, I don't know if "broken" is the right word. Obviously, they did a lot of things remarkably right. Their run of sustained success, weaker division or not, was invaluable in developing and maintaining a fan base. And in getting a stadium built, as evidence by the current struggles of the Vikings, which are an even more popular Minnesota team.

But in the midst of that success, they were absolutely not doing the things in the lower levels of the organization that were needed to replenish their talent. We're still sorting through a whole generation of pitchers (now in their early or mid-20's) who were drafted in the image of the crafty, strike-throwing right hander. You could probably name a dozen of these "Radke" clones that we've sorted through, but they're all virtually the same - good enough to hover around the majors, but never really had a ceiling any higher than a 4th or 5th starter.

I think that the organization has already "fixed" some of what was broken, but we just haven't seen the results of that yet. Kyle Gibson does not look like your typical Twins draft pick, but he got hurt. Miguel Sano was an aggressive youth signing, and he's about as promising of low minors prospect as you could ask for. Nishioka, while it completely didn't work, was an effort by the Twins to "go outside the box" and aggressively acquire a player they thought had potential to be a star. And I think the 2011-12 offseason WAS a "success" from the standpoint that this team made more moves to improve their future, as opposed to just patching it up or acquiescing to re-signing popular players that wouldn't have helped the team's future (Nathan, Kubel, and Cuddy). I would be surprised if the Twins don't use a number of the picks that they stockpiled in the June draft on power arms and high-risk, high-reward prospects. You can always sign or claim replacement level players at the major league level, even on the low budget. The goal of the draft is to try and find guys who are significantly BETTER than that, and if you whiff on 4 out of 5 of those efforts, that's just the price of admission. I think they're starting to get that, as ugly as the on-field product is, and will continue to be.

CDog
05-03-2012, 09:19 AM
In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

Yeah, I remember everyone wondering why he was struggling out of the gate in 2009 when he only hit .414 in May with a .500 (wait, .500!!!!) OBP and .838 SLG (for a 1.338 OPS). Then when he went .353/.407/.490 in June, all the baseball world was clamoring about what could be wrong. Then in 2010 we had to go through it all again when he finished April only .345/.406/.500.

Methinks your memory may have tricked you.

JB_Iowa
05-03-2012, 09:59 AM
CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

Perhaps those are the things that made me recall that he seemed to improve in July.

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

He has a lot more work to do to make himself really tradeable (in a meaningful way) but staying on the field is part of it.

tpb8
05-03-2012, 10:27 AM
I have no problems with Mauer. He's a great player. He's also making $23 million per year on a last place team that has many needs. I refuse to beleive you could not trade Mauer right now. I know he has a huge contract to move, but anything is possible with teams that spend like NY, Boston, Angels....etc. I singled him out only as a player that could bring us back some solid young players/prospects. The same goes for Span & Willingham.

Morneau is tradeable if he comes back and hits. His contract is not so huge that a contender wouldn't be interested (if he comes back and hits).

These would be unpopular moves with the casual fans (90% of Twins fans), but i think they need to happen in order to speed up the rebuilding process. Right now i don't consider the Twins to be in rebuilding mode. I don't think they felt (before the season) that they needed to rebuild. I think they probably see now that they do so it'll be interesting to see if they're willing to part with some popular players for future gains.

2003freak2003
05-03-2012, 10:40 AM
CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

Perhaps those are the things that made me recall that he seemed to improve in July.

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

He has a lot more work to do to make himself really tradeable (in a meaningful way) but staying on the field is part of it.

You are delusional. "This just in Joe Mauer waves no trade clause, says he didnt sit out early part of season because he wants to be traded, and also realizes the twins suck so he wants to jump ship." Ok so you might not hear those exact words but that it what your saying...No chance dude...Mauer made a choice to stay when he signed his contract and he and his agent had to of known that AFTER the 1st couple of years he signed it might not be "fun times" around twins territory...but that it would be him they would build the future around.

CDog
05-03-2012, 10:53 AM
CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

Yes, 2009 he missed all of April. I thought the bunt thing was extremely overblown and--probably related to that fact--I don't remember if it was last year or the year before. I feel like it was later in the year, though, but that's just from faint memory (like July or August).

I guess I'd say that the Twins and their fans might be some tiny amount more accepting of the idea of trading him. I still would be shocked if that got all the way to "it happens." And I would be just as surprised if that had anything to do with the reasons he's been in the lineup as much as he has.

BD57
05-03-2012, 08:11 PM
Gardy's a good manager. It's possible that he's grown stale for the guys in the clubhouse - even good managers do sometimes - but I don't think this is all on Gardy. He's part of the problem, but he's not the sole cause.

IMO, the Twins don't place much value on power arms & bats. Maybe they're hard to identify when kids are coming out of HS or 3rd year of college ball, I don't know - - - maybe they're hard to develop when you're preaching "pitch to contact" and "hit the other way" all the time.

Bark's Lounge
05-03-2012, 09:23 PM
At some point every baseball organization is going to suck. Right now our home team is starting to figure out that MLB has outgrown the "Twins Way". Ryan and his staff need to change philosophies on the fly and start the long process to make things right. If they can't someone else will. The Pohlads (love them or hate them) depend on making money from this team - if they lose more money than they deem acceptable, Ryan and his staff will be replaced. No questions asked. Also, Mauer will not be traded or accept a trade. First of all the Twins won't eat the amount of salary it would take to move him - and 2nd, Mauer does not want to be traded. I wish Mauer had some super power to harness all of the negative energy thrown his way and use it for good. If THAT were the case he should retire from baseball and fix some of the REAL problems we have in this world/society/country. With all of the negative energy he has harnessed, he is 20 times more powerful than the sun.

silverslugger
05-03-2012, 09:46 PM
Lots of interesting discussion on this thread, but much of it just icing on the cake. Back to the question, "are the Twins broke?"

Let's see;

1) Finish last in your division - check
2) Finish with the 2nd worst record in all of baseball - check
3) Have your two top minor league affiliates finish with historically bad seasons, one for the second year in a row - check
4) See #! above, do this in the weakest division in the AL - check
5) Go through the first month of the next season playing .250 ball - check

Need I go further?

Yes, the Twins are broken. Please Mr.s Pohlad and Mr. Ryan, fix the Twins!

TwinsGuy55422
05-03-2012, 10:21 PM
I think it is much more likely that Mauer cares about the Twins and his childhood fanbase and was bound and determined to show them that he is healthy and ready to bust his butt for the team than wanting to increase his trade value.

glunn
05-04-2012, 12:04 AM
Lots of interesting discussion on this thread, but much of it just icing on the cake. Back to the question, "are the Twins broke?"

Let's see;

1) Finish last in your division - check
2) Finish with the 2nd worst record in all of baseball - check
3) Have your two top minor league affiliates finish with historically bad seasons, one for the second year in a row - check
4) See #! above, do this in the weakest division in the AL - check
5) Go through the first month of the next season playing .250 ball - check

Need I go further?

Yes, the Twins are broken. Please Mr.s Pohlad and Mr. Ryan, fix the Twins!

Reality checks can be painful, and this one is difficult to dispute.