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darin617
05-01-2012, 10:48 PM
Why is Clete Thomas still on the roster? He is horrible with all the strikeouts and has done nothing since his first series with the Twins. I would rather see Revere and his baby arm than Thomas. How is Thomas still getting AB's when he is hacking? Doesn't he know that is not the Twins way to approach an AB?

twinsnorth49
05-01-2012, 10:51 PM
It's been the Twins way tonight, they're all hacking. I agree though, he's a waste of space.

glunn
05-01-2012, 10:56 PM
I agree with both of you, but think that Revere would be a disaster in right field due to his weak arm. I think that the best solution would be to play Revere in center and move Span to right. But, apparently, Gardy does not want to hurt Span's feelings.

darin617
05-01-2012, 11:00 PM
I would actually leave Revere in AAA and hope he can actually rebuild his trade value and dump him.

CDog
05-01-2012, 11:31 PM
I agree with both of you, but think that Revere would be a disaster in right field due to his weak arm. I think that the best solution would be to play Revere in center and move Span to right. But, apparently, Gardy does not want to hurt Span's feelings.

Clearly if he disagrees with you it's due to a reason like that. Obviously you've got more and better information available to you than Gardy does. And let's not get into all the extra experience you have. So that's the only conclusion one could reach. Wait...I'm thinking...

Ultima Ratio
05-01-2012, 11:32 PM
If we seriously reflect for a moment, should we expect Clete to improve, perform as he has been, or worsen? I think we're seeing the base line, but maybe some marginal improvement.

twinsnorth49
05-02-2012, 12:16 AM
I'd love to see the scouting report on Thomas, probably goes something like this;

"Is almost legally blind, pretty much anything will do, don't worry about having to stay away from certain pitches, he can't hit any of them. Has never had a walk in his life.If we have to have a plan then for sh**s and giggles let's go fastball in, fastball away, change-up. That should do it.

glunn
05-02-2012, 12:37 AM
Clearly if he disagrees with you it's due to a reason like that. Obviously you've got more and better information available to you than Gardy does. And let's not get into all the extra experience you have. So that's the only conclusion one could reach. Wait...I'm thinking...

Are you saying that Span is a better defender in center than Revere? Or that Revere has a good enough arm to play right field? Or are you saying that we should always defer to Gardy (or never speculate as to what he might be thinking) because he has so much experience?

I base my opinion on watching both Span and Revere play center and on the indisputable fact that Span has a good enough arm to play right field, while Revere would be a disaster there. I am also taking into account the way that Gardenhire spoke about Span being his centerfielder during spring training. It seemed to me at the time that he was trying to make Span feel secure. Just my opinion, but that's what I thought at the time.

At this point, we are getting almost no production from right field and Revere might provide a spark if Gardy would make room for him in the lineup by moving Span. Since Willingham seems unable/unwilling to play right field (and is barely able to play left), it seems to me that the only rational way to get Revere into the lineup would be in center. Also, Span would provide a huge defensive upgrade over Doumit/Plouffe/Thomas in right. And Revere is fun to watch, which would be a blessing in the dark days of this terrible season.

As for Gardy, I would trade him and our #2 pick in the upcoming draft for Mike Scioscia.

Riverbrian
05-02-2012, 01:02 AM
I agree with both of you, but think that Revere would be a disaster in right field due to his weak arm. I think that the best solution would be to play Revere in center and move Span to right. But, apparently, Gardy does not want to hurt Span's feelings.

1. You need an arm to play CF as much as you need one in RF. Arm hiding only makes total sense in LF.
2. Alex Gordon led MLB with 20 outfield assists last year. Led by a wide margin with 2nd being 16.
3. The strong armed Gordons, Cuddyers, Ankiels and Francour's of the world nailed the advancing runner once every 8 games.
4. Is the arm that big of an issue? The runner is advancing when the situation dictates advancing. Mr. Cannon and Mr. Popgun will both struggle to stop advancement.
5. With the exception of balls deep to the fences. The purpose of the cut is to stop the trailing runner from advancing. The weak armed guy gets cut more often and leads to less trailing runner advancement.
6. Ben can throw a baseball. He's done it a few times in his life. It's not like he throws a baseball and it falls straight to the ground.
7. At some point the arm obsession takes on a life of its own and it gets bigger then it needs to be.
8. Yeah you'd rather have a Francour Arm but Range is a much much bigger issue in outfield defense.

Riverbrian
05-02-2012, 01:11 AM
Are you saying that Span is a better defender in center than Revere? Or that Revere has a good enough arm to play right field? Or are you saying that we should always defer to Gardy (or never speculate as to what he might be thinking) because he has so much experience?

I base my opinion on watching both Span and Revere play center and on the indisputable fact that Span has a good enough arm to play right field, while Revere would be a disaster there. I am also taking into account the way that Gardenhire spoke about Span being his centerfielder during spring training. It seemed to me at the time that he was trying to make Span feel secure. Just my opinion, but that's what I thought at the time.

At this point, we are getting almost no production from right field and Revere might provide a spark if Gardy would make room for him in the lineup by moving Span. Since Willingham seems unable/unwilling to play right field (and is barely able to play left), it seems to me that the only rational way to get Revere into the lineup would be in center. Also, Span would provide a huge defensive upgrade over Doumit/Plouffe/Thomas in right. And Revere is fun to watch, which would be a blessing in the dark days of this terrible season.

As for Gardy, I would trade him and our #2 pick in the upcoming draft for Mike Scioscia.

Im with you on Revere... Put him in the lineup but don't be afraid of his arm.

I don't believe Willingham is unwilling to play RF. Willingham was moved to LF because of Doumit and Morneau. Once Morneau became the DH. Doumit's bat needed a position and RF is where is experience was. That moved Willingham to LF.

I believe that Parmelee was also an unplanned Spring training survivor and that took the third catcher out of the mix.

Everything was Revere in LF and Willingham in RF and then it changed with about a week left in Spring training.

Riverbrian
05-02-2012, 01:15 AM
I'd love to see the scouting report on Thomas, probably goes something like this;

"Is almost legally blind, pretty much anything will do, don't worry about having to stay away from certain pitches, he can't hit any of them. Has never had a walk in his life.If we have to have a plan then for sh**s and giggles let's go fastball in, fastball away, change-up. That should do it.

If I owned a team... You would be my director of scouting. All scouting reports should read like this one.

Back to the subject. Clete Thomas is toolsy. He should be dripping with potential but at age 28.. the potential clock is ticking like Marissa Tomei's foot in My Cousin Vinny.

stringer bell
05-02-2012, 06:21 AM
It is apparent that Gardenhire doesn't want to see Revere starting every day in right field, hence his demotion to Rochester. This makes sense because Revere's value on offense is limited by his lack of selectivity and lack of power and his value on defense is limited by his poor throwing arm. Couple that with having Casilla, Carroll, and Span as regulars, which would mean that almost half of the order wouldn't be any threat of hitting home runs. The team has also decided that Revere would benefit from getting lots of at-bats to work on bunting and selectivity and perhaps finding a way to drive the ball and make capable throws.

Thomas has proven to be a stretch even as a fourth OF, Plouffe hasn't hit, Doumit has looked like a catcher playing right field, so somebody needs to step up in right field.

Riverbrian
05-02-2012, 08:18 AM
It is apparent that Gardenhire doesn't want to see Revere starting every day in right field, hence his demotion to Rochester.

This makes sense because Revere's value on offense is limited by his lack of selectivity and lack of power and his value on defense is limited by his poor throwing arm.

Couple that with having Casilla, Carroll, and Span as regulars, which would mean that almost half of the order wouldn't be any threat of hitting home runs.

The team has also decided that Revere would benefit from getting lots of at-bats to work on bunting and selectivity and perhaps finding a way to drive the ball and make capable throws.

Thomas has proven to be a stretch even as a fourth OF, Plouffe hasn't hit, Doumit has looked like a catcher playing right field, so somebody needs to step up in right field.

Revere supporters (like me) gloss over his weak points. The anti Revere crowd accentuate his flaws. Every player has flaws especially on this team.

The "limited" sentence in your post can be written in similar fashion for every player on the Twins. For example "Mauers value on offense is limited by his lack of power and overly patient approach" or you can be written "Mauers home run power isn't an issue because of his high OBP percentage and plate discipline".

The next sentence could be written "With Willingham, Morneau, Doumit, Parmelee and Velencia over half your lineup has no foot speed at all.

The thing I agree with is... his need to play every day and working on his plate discipline. Just thought that would be happening in the majors this year.

Back to Thomas... He's toolsy and with those tools. There is a reason he was cut by the Tigers... After watching him play I'm convinced contact is a primary reason.

Boom Boom
05-02-2012, 08:41 AM
I know that Plouffe hasn't been hitting particularly well, but the Twins need to find out what they have with him. Plouffe should be starting every day in RF, maybe spelled once in a while by Doumit.

Wow, I just looked up Thomas's numbers in AAA last year - he struck out 130 times. In AAA. That's Jason Pridie territory.

Gernzy
05-02-2012, 08:47 AM
I agree that Plouffe should start everyday in RF. At this point if he can't handle it, might be time for him to move on.

CDog
05-02-2012, 09:07 AM
Are you saying that Span is a better defender in center than Revere? Or that Revere has a good enough arm to play right field? Or are you saying that we should always defer to Gardy (or never speculate as to what he might be thinking) because he has so much experience?

Since Willingham seems unable/unwilling to play right field.

Did I even mention Revere or Span? You stated your opinion, and then added that the only conclusion you could come to for Gardnehire doing something different than you would do was worrying about feelings. I contend that it's juuuuust possible that he could actually disagree with you. AND...here's the shocker...it's even possible that in a difference of opinion, it's possible that the other person is right.

Still waiting for any source for Willingham being unwilling to play right field (other than just someone on the internets making it up and typing it).

ashburyjohn
05-02-2012, 09:25 AM
6. Ben can throw a baseball. He's done it a few times in his life. It's not like he throws a baseball and it falls straight to the ground.

I don't see many games but I remember one last year where he two-hopped it to his cutoff man who had come out extra far. Two-hopped it. To the cutoff man. Who had already made allowances.

That's pretty nearly straight to the ground. I've uncorked throws like that, but I was on a beer-league softball team that couldn't even afford beer.

whydidnt
05-02-2012, 12:53 PM
Well, I think many of us thought the Twins made a decent move bringing Thomas in as a 4th OF. He's not going to keep striking out more than 1/2 his time up unless Vavra has really messed with his head. He's always been a big strike out guy, but the current rate has to be of historic proportions. If he was a 4th OF starting maybe once or twice a week, you'd hope he'd play more like what we expected the Twins were getting. However, it seems like he is the LH part of a RF platoon right now and that is bad. I would rather see the Twins see if Plouffe can make it as an everyday player. I have my doubts, but I'd much rather see if he can figure things out than watch Thomas flail away like he has. As for Willingham in RF vs. LF, Gardenhire said that he'd talked with Willingham and Josh was obviously more comfortable in left. That's why Willingham is in left instead of right. It goes without saying he's more comfortable in left than right, that's where he's played his entire career. Are you more comfortable sleeping in your own bed, or that stiff board they have at a hotel? The question is what is better for the team, and that's what the manager's job is to decide, I think some of us disagree with the decision, but let's be serious..how much of a difference does it really make. I don't think there is that big of a difference at the ML level in value of playing a guy in right vs. left. I will say I think Gardenhire makes a lot of these decisions based on "player comfort" instead of what might be best for the team. I'm sure he feels that having a guy comfortable is best for the team, so in his mind that's the right decision. I just don't always agree. Sometimes being a little uncomfortable isn't the worse thing and making sure your get your best players in the lineup is more important.

Alex
05-02-2012, 01:32 PM
I think Clete is on the team to be that 4th outfielder, allowing Revere to hit everyday in AAA.

I also think the reason Willingham is in left is due to Morneau DHing. At least, I hope that's the reason. Willingham can't be that much worse in RF than he has been in left. I've got to believe that moving him to right and putting someone else in left would net the twins more runs saved, especially if it were someone like Revere.

2003freak2003
05-02-2012, 01:46 PM
Either way Clete Thomas is complete Garbage. What if he gets marginally better. It's still pathetic numbers. I agree with Plouffe getting his chances at right or any other chance available to him than Thomas. Atleast Plouffe puts the bat on the ball ...a one of the most fundamental parts of the game that was taught to all of us.. and Thomas has rarely been able to do that.

twinsnorth49
05-02-2012, 02:52 PM
If I owned a team... You would be my director of scouting. All scouting reports should read like this one.

Back to the subject. Clete Thomas is toolsy. He should be dripping with potential but at age 28.. the potential clock is ticking like Marissa Tomei's foot in My Cousin Vinny.

I'm in, I won't quit my day job but I'm in.

mike wants wins
05-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Becuase they do not understand the rebuilding concepts. That simple.

twinsnorth49
05-02-2012, 03:02 PM
He's not going to keep striking out more than 1/2 his time up unless Vavra has really messed with his head.

Sometimes being a little uncomfortable isn't the worse thing and making sure your get your best players in the lineup is more important.

Somehow I don't think Joe Vavra is the one responsible for getting Thomas to swing at every pitch that moves in a forward direction towards the plate. The problem with Thomas is he seems to think every pitch is his pitch and he couldn't read a pitch sequence if the pitcher wrote it down for him.

Secondly, you should always play your best players, shouldn't matter where.

glunn
05-03-2012, 01:16 AM
Did I even mention Revere or Span? You stated your opinion, and then added that the only conclusion you could come to for Gardnehire doing something different than you would do was worrying about feelings. I contend that it's juuuuust possible that he could actually disagree with you. AND...here's the shocker...it's even possible that in a difference of opinion, it's possible that the other person is right.

Still waiting for any source for Willingham being unwilling to play right field (other than just someone on the internets making it up and typing it).

What I actually said was: "But, apparently, Gardy does not want to hurt Span's feelings." That is a statement of opinion, not fact. Take the word "apparently" out of the sentence, and what you are saying would be a fair criticism.

I continue to believe that Revere would make more good plays in centerfield than Span, and that Gardenhire missed the boat with the plan to put Revere in left field. Based on the games that I have seen, I believe that Revere is faster than Span, takes a better route to the ball and makes catches that Span could not make. Just my opinion, which I am willing to debate.

Kdj2002
05-03-2012, 07:09 AM
If he was 23 and showed some type of promise I would understand sticking with him through the struggles. But 28 and a track record of not performing on this level...?? Why is he here?

Alex
05-03-2012, 07:29 AM
Sadly the Twins don't have someone they can sit on the bench and play all OF positions. As mentioned I don't think they want Revere or Benson doing that right now because it would hurt their development.

ScottyB
05-03-2012, 07:58 AM
Now that he's off the DL why don't they toss Thomas and bring up Tosoni. He has as much power as Thomas, can play all 3 OF spots, and seems better suited to come off the bench to pinch hit. He was pretty successful last year. If not Tosoni, why not try Mastroianni - RH can play all 3 OF plus 1B and has spent time at 2B as well. More versatile, less power, more speed and is currently batting over .350 at Rochester. Just dump Thomas at this point, he's a wasted spot on the roster.

StormJH1
05-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Now that he's off the DL why don't they toss Thomas and bring up Tosoni. He has as much power as Thomas, can play all 3 OF spots, and seems better suited to come off the bench to pinch hit. He was pretty successful last year. If not Tosoni, why not try Mastroianni - RH can play all 3 OF plus 1B and has spent time at 2B as well. More versatile, less power, more speed and is currently batting over .350 at Rochester. Just dump Thomas at this point, he's a wasted spot on the roster.

Agree and disagree. I'm done with Tosoni...well, he was really a non-starter. Guy is 25 years old and a career .221 hitter in 317 PA's at Triple-A. The appeal of this for a corner outfielder is...what, exactly?

But I agree on the Mastroianni bit...not that he's so great (though his Triple-A numbers have actually been pretty good), but that it he was acquired to specifically do what Clete was apparently picked up to do.

These types of transactions I do blame on Gardy, not just the front office. Leyland confirmed Gardy's man-crush on Clete Thomas for years, and Gardy gave him way too much playing time. Gardy just has "his guys", but he spends this time acquiring or wasting roster spots on scrappy guys instead of trying out even mid-to-low level prospects like Plouffe, Parmelee, etc. that have at least a glimmer of hope of becoming something more.

ScottyB
05-03-2012, 09:48 AM
Agree and disagree. I'm done with Tosoni...well, he was really a non-starter. Guy is 25 years old and a career .221 hitter in 317 PA's at Triple-A. The appeal of this for a corner outfielder is...what, exactly?

Not saying I want Tosoni as a starter. But he had 35 hits last year for the Twins and over 1/3 of them were for extra bases - 7 doubles, 1 triple and 5 homers. He came through with a number of big pinch hits and seems like a better option than Mr. 14 strikeouts in 17 AB's, as a 4th outfielder. Right now I'd go with Mastroianni - right-handed with speed and more versatile.

ashburyjohn
05-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Not saying I want Tosoni as a starter. But he had 35 hits last year for the Twins and over 1/3 of them were for extra bases - 7 doubles, 1 triple and 5 homers. He came through with a number of big pinch hits and seems like a better option than Mr. 14 strikeouts in 17 AB's, as a 4th outfielder. Right now I'd go with Mastroianni - right-handed with speed and more versatile.

Mastro is my adoptee so I'm obligated to second this. Still, I'm not sure his skill set matches what the Twins need, and I think that's why Clete has gotten chance after chance. Clete has most of what Mastro has, speed and defense, to a lower degree, and brings a moderate level of power based on his minor league production that Darin just doesn't have; they both show about .750 OPS in their time at AAA, but Clete's was achieved differently.

In yesterday's no-hit game's lineup, three of the hitters (Span, Casilla, Carroll) are clearly table-setter types, Willingham has demonstrated RBI ability, and we can debate the spot on this spectrum for the other 5, all of whom have potential to do more than set the table but currently aren't doing much else (in some cases like Plouffe they aren't doing anything at all). Replacing Clete with Mastro in that lineup gives you four table setters. Moreover, Mastro's best role is as a leadoff hitter, and Span's not moving out the way for him; batting him #2 would likely waste his strengths, and batting him 9th seems weak to me. Particularly until Morneau shows he's ready again, t's just not a fit right now.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if Mastro was signed specifically as Span insurance in case the concussion symptoms recurred. If so, we kind of have to hope he remains buried at AAA. Sorry to have to say that about my adopted "son".

DJSim22
05-03-2012, 12:47 PM
Either way Clete Thomas is complete Garbage. What if he gets marginally better. It's still pathetic numbers. I agree with Plouffe getting his chances at right or any other chance available to him than Thomas. Atleast Plouffe puts the bat on the ball ...a one of the most fundamental parts of the game that was taught to all of us.. and Thomas has rarely been able to do that.


I agree with you minus the garbage comment. I don't think a guy should be called garbage for being a fringe MLB player.

glunn
05-04-2012, 12:50 AM
I agree with you minus the garbage comment. I don't think a guy should be called garbage for being a fringe MLB player.

Thomas made the best catch of the night last night against the Angels. But he also looked terrible at the plate. Maybe there is some potential for him, possibly to at least help Rochester win some games.