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View Full Version : Article: Twins Drop Burroughs. But Why?



Nick Nelson
05-01-2012, 07:21 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?496-Twins-Drop-Burroughs-But-Why

Thrylos
05-01-2012, 07:26 PM
Why? I never understood how: a. he made the team over others b. was kept on the team instead of Hughes.

He was a rally killer with the bat (proved that last night too) several times. He was past the Mendoza line and even past the Butera line. There is a 40-man roster spot open now so another IF might be on the way up. Carroll (whose numbers are more like those of a UT IF) can back 3rd (or Plouffe) if needed. This is correcting a couple mistakes. And the Twins are full of LH hitters. Don't need another one esp. if he cannot hit his weight.

Alex
05-01-2012, 07:36 PM
Why? I never understood how: a. he made the team over others b. was kept on the team instead of Hughes.

He was a rally killer with the bat (proved that last night too) several times. He was past the Mendoza line and even past the Butera line. There is a 40-man roster spot open now so another IF might be on the way up. Carroll (whose numbers are more like those of a UT IF) can back 3rd (or Plouffe) if needed. This is correcting a couple mistakes. And the Twins are full of LH hitters. Don't need another one esp. if he cannot hit his weight.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but Burroughs had 18 PA, 6 of which were pinch hits. Not really a test of a player's worth, especially if they thought he was good enough to make the roster in the first place. All that you say (not needing a lefty, and needing another IF) could have been accomplished in a different manner and when the Twins didn't have such a short bench already, especially when replaced with Butera.

Thrylos
05-01-2012, 07:37 PM
I mentioned this in the other thread, but Burroughs had 18 PA, 6 of which were pinch hits. Not really a test of a player's worth, especially if they thought he was good enough to make the roster in the first place.

You can use the same reasoning about Revere and Hughes...

mhanson93
05-01-2012, 07:40 PM
Why? I never understood how: a. he made the team over others b. was kept on the team instead of Hughes.

He was a rally killer with the bat (proved that last night too) several times. He was past the Mendoza line and even past the Butera line. There is a 40-man roster spot open now so another IF might be on the way up. Carroll (whose numbers are more like those of a UT IF) can back 3rd (or Plouffe) if needed. This is correcting a couple mistakes. And the Twins are full of LH hitters. Don't need another one esp. if he cannot hit his weight.

Agreed. Nick, you are way overestimating Burroughs' value. No big loss here.

Seth Stohs
05-01-2012, 07:42 PM
I actually agree with both of you. Burroughs served little purpose on the roster, other than being left-handed. But the pattern and DL usage and mentioned by Nick is 100% accurate. That said, if Morneau is able to play on Friday or Saturday (guessing not likely), then it was the right decision not to DL him... however, I still would have taken a pitcher off the 25 (and possibly 40) man roster.

The Twins were already at 39, I believe.

Alex
05-01-2012, 07:42 PM
You can use the same reasoning about Revere and Hughes...

Not really, I think both of those situations are different. Hughes was out of options but had been in the organization for awhile. Revere isn't really close to the same argument because I think it was clear the point of him playing at AAA was to get him ABs every day. This theory was supported when they picked Clete Thomas up off of waivers.

mike wants wins
05-01-2012, 07:42 PM
No problem for me. I'm told Butera will go back down in a day or two (hahahahahahaha), and with Burroughs off the roster, we should see a young guy that can actually contribute (in the future, if not this year) come up and get experience.

Thrylos
05-01-2012, 07:50 PM
I'm told Butera will go back down in a day or two (hahahahahahaha),.

I bet that Gardy will get fired before Butera goes down...

Nick Nelson
05-01-2012, 07:50 PM
Why? I never understood how: a. he made the team over others b. was kept on the team instead of Hughes.

OK, well whether or not you understood either of those things, they both happened. If you're going to stick with the guy for that long, why not give him more than 18 plate appearances and three starts to show what he can do? Pretty neat that you've determined he's a "rally killer" based on 10 at-bats with men on base.

I'm not really sure I believe Clete Thomas is more valuable than Burroughs, but the principal point is that there was no need to even choose between them. Keep them both and keep the team at full strength. If the Twins medical staff says Morneau is good to go in three days, do you trust them?

Nick Nelson
05-01-2012, 07:53 PM
Also, it's interesting that some folks seem to be OK with the move based on the fact that Carroll can play third if needed. Great, you can take the team's best IF defender away from shortstop and put him at a position where he becomes an even bigger offensive liability than Valencia.

Dark Kinetic-Grip
05-01-2012, 07:57 PM
I would not mind at all if they picked up Luke Hughes again. Burroughs should have gone in the first place.

AT4MVP
05-01-2012, 08:10 PM
Burroughs has two hits I believe, and none of the at bats I've seen him take have been good. He is overly aggressive. I know for a fact that one of hits was also an infield single. I attended the game when we were rallying against the Red Sox, and the Twins batted around in the inning we scored five runs. Everyone had hit the ball hard and had good at-bats. Burroughs meanwhile, accounted for ALL THREE OUTS. He led off the inning, and struck out swinging. Then he came up again that inning with the bases loaded, and grounded into a double play.

I am not a huge Butera fan and would much rather have liked to see Jeff Gray get DFAd, but I don't think there's any reason to be scratching your heads over this move. I specifically remember Gardy saying after Burroughs made the team that he felt Burroughs "was a guy who could come off the bench and give him a big league, veteran at-bat." Well, sorry to tell you Gardy, I never saw that this year.

stringer bell
05-01-2012, 08:31 PM
While it isn't fair to judge Burroughs on 18 plate appearances, I don't think anyone will claim him and he'll have a chance to go to Rochester and get some at-bats and perhaps return to the team later in the season. I don't know how severe Mauer's injury is, but as long as Butera stays away from the field, it isn't that important. The bench is short for the rest of the Angels series, but they'll have enough pitchers and there aren't that many who could be hit for.

one_eyed_jack
05-01-2012, 08:33 PM
What this all comes down to is that this team has zero depth beyond it's preferred lineup of 9. Absolutely none.

Debating the relative merits of Burroughs, Hughes, Butera, Clete, etc. is akin to picking out the best smelling turd in a steaming pile of crap.

Not one of these guys should be allowed in an MLB park without buying a ticket like the rest of us.

It's a pretty sad statement with where things are when you start looking at pulling Jose Lopez off the Cleveland scrap heap as an appealing move.

mnfireman
05-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Gardy is re-making the roster in his own image, he just can't talk Ryan into cutting Plouffe for Revere yet. Then the bench will be GREAT... Thomas, Butera, Revere...oh my.

spideyo
05-01-2012, 09:16 PM
Yeah, cause Plouffe has been a HUGE asset off the bench. In 20 PA's over 6 games, Revere actually has one more hit than Plouffe does in his 40 PA's over 13 games.

jorgenswest
05-01-2012, 09:25 PM
It is hard to trust the Twins assessment.

Burroughs - He has the same ability and skill today as he did opening day. They could have sent him to Rochester without putting him on the 40 at the end of spring. They assessed he was worthy of a spot on the 25 and 40 and now risk losing him. Did the management fail to assess his ability a month ago or have they failed now?

Butera - Butera's ability to hit has not changed in 4 weeks. There may be a need if Mauer can't catch right now. Howver, when Mauer is healthy Butera should be returned to AAA. If he remains, were the Twins incorrect in their assessment about his ability to contribute from the bench a month ago or are they incorrect now?

13 pitchers - Tonight they have one option on the bench. Trevor Plouffe. Inexcusable. Weren't some encouraged by the bench to open the season?

Asset management - We will argue the value of Hughes and Burroughs to the organization. The Twins either mistakenly valued these assests or poorly mismanaged them.

tcarlic
05-01-2012, 09:29 PM
Good, that dude sucked. How many times did he had runners on and didn't get a hit? Good, no need for him to be on the team. Is Plouffe the next to go?

mike wants wins
05-01-2012, 09:29 PM
They are just awful at roster management, nothing has changed with Smith gone. I'm more convinced than ever that Smith wasn't calling the shots the last few years. NOTHING has changed in their approach, which should not be surprising, not one person in the FO is not homegrown....

nicksaviking
05-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Wow, is the tension really this thick over Sean Burroughs? Second guessing the last couple of bench spots seems kind of petty. Those spots are pretty fluid for every team, you only get in trouble if you fill them with players you are too afraid to lose on the waiver wire. The last couple of guys always need to be expendable in case of injury, position need or a more a intreguing player becomes available through waivers, trade or free agency. This is sad for Burroughs as a person, but this is not significant news from a baseball standpoint.

Shane Wahl
05-01-2012, 09:43 PM
Why is Clete Thomas still on the team? That is the greater mystery.

And seeing Drew Butera on the major league roster makes me puke.

mike wants wins
05-01-2012, 09:51 PM
nick, that's the news today. should we just stick to how bad the pitching is every day?

Alex
05-01-2012, 10:06 PM
I don't think its an issue of one move, but that it's the most recent in a group where it seems odd, creating questions about personnel judgement and overall roster decisions. They judged Burrough's worthy enough to make the team out of spring training but 30 AB later he's DFA. Especially highlighted here is the 13 man pitching staff.

glunn
05-01-2012, 10:41 PM
I agree with those who say that our bench is terrible, and who don't mourn the loss of Borroughs. On the other hand, there don't seem to be a lot of options in Rochester who are ready to step up. The good news -- being in last place might result in a shot at a decent player being released by another team.

darin617
05-01-2012, 10:56 PM
I can't believe nobody has made the comment that the Twins didn't have anything invested in Borroughs so it's no big loss. Another one of those great Terry Ryan moves to build a contender.

MileHighTwinsFan
05-01-2012, 10:59 PM
I'm wondering if the next move will be to bring up Dozier and put Carroll in the utility role. What is the date when the Twins can bring him up without losing a service year on him?

Alex
05-01-2012, 11:11 PM
I'm wondering if the next move will be to bring up Dozier and put Carroll in the utility role. What is the date when the Twins can bring him up without losing a service year on him?

Dozier probably needs more time in AAA. He's not exactly tearing the cover off the ball, especially after his fast start.

darin617
05-01-2012, 11:13 PM
Anybody see Jorge Cantu is out there? I know he is not the answer but better than Burroughs and somebody needs to push Danny boy so he might try.

Nick Nelson
05-02-2012, 12:06 AM
I'm wondering if the next move will be to bring up Dozier and put Carroll in the utility role. What is the date when the Twins can bring him up without losing a service year on him?
Dozier is old enough that starting his service clock should not be a consideration. He's also been pretty dang horrible since the first week or so of the season.

SweetOne69
05-02-2012, 07:36 AM
Well it looks like the Dozier era is going to start soon. By DFA'ing Burroughs, the only backup infielder is Plouffe. The Twins have 2 open spots on the 40-man roster so it looks like when they finally drop to 12 pitchers it will most likely Dozier getting the call and taking over the starting SS spot with Carroll moving to a utility role.

LaBombo
05-02-2012, 10:38 AM
Burroughs/Thomas/Hughes/Butera ===> deck chairs.

2012 Twins ===>Titanic.

2003freak2003
05-02-2012, 11:37 AM
Burroughs/Thomas/Hughes/Butera ===> deck chairs.

2012 Twins ===>Titanic.

I think the deck chairs / Titanic comparison is getting posted just a tad too much. I enjoy reading EVERY post but this one has just came up way too many times. It may be true but it is also posted WAY TOO MUCH! HMMMM
Baseballs =====> hit by baseball players
Why is Clete Thomas on this team? His strikeout ratio is TERRIBLE! Anyone else notice this?

John Bonnes
05-02-2012, 01:26 PM
I'm agreeing with Nick. Burroughs has done less than nothing, but it's 18 AB and his value wasn't just as a left-hande pinch hitter. his value was as a possible platoon option for Valencia. I don't understand discarding that, unless they were sure that he was going to clear waivers. (Or there is some news we don't know about....)

But the key question here is why make that move over some others. There is no way Gray is claimed. Probably not Maloney. But Nick raised the biggest question which is why not just put Morneau on the DL? Why in the hell is this team completely incapable of just throwing a guy on the DL who is obviously hurting, based both on his perfromace and the fact that they rushed him out to a specialist?

Morneau's WPA right now is -.21. I wonder if he'll play prior to 5/15. And if he does, I'm betting he hurts the team more than he helps it. This is a silly move.

Shane Wahl
05-02-2012, 01:41 PM
I'm agreeing with Nick. Burroughs has done less than nothing, but it's 18 AB and his value wasn't just as a left-hande pinch hitter. his value was as a possible platoon option for Valencia. I don't understand discarding that, unless they were sure that he was going to clear waivers. (Or there is some news we don't know about....)

But the key question here is why make that move over some others. There is no way Gray is claimed. Probably not Maloney. But Nick raised the biggest question which is why not just put Morneau on the DL? Why in the hell is this team completely incapable of just throwing a guy on the DL who is obviously hurting, based both on his perfromace and the fact that they rushed him out to a specialist?

Morneau's WPA right now is -.21. I wonder if he'll play prior to 5/15. And if he does, I'm betting he hurts the team more than he helps it. This is a silly move.

Exactly. It isn't about Burroughs, it's about the fact that this is yet another strange roster move that seems less desirable than some others. It's indicative of bad thinking about player personnel.

And of course the Morneau situation only adds deeply to that. ONCE AGAIN, just DL the guy instead of messing around with the hope that it's a 4-day situation.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-02-2012, 06:57 PM
My only problem is that the Twins don't have any backup infielders and utility men now. Burroughs wasn't a good player, but he DID have the ability to make Valencia sit on the bench. That in itself has some value.

deanlambrecht
05-02-2012, 08:54 PM
I'm agreeing with Nick. Burroughs has done less than nothing, but it's 18 AB and his value wasn't just as a left-hande pinch hitter. his value was as a possible platoon option for Valencia. I don't understand discarding that, unless they were sure that he was going to clear waivers. (Or there is some news we don't know about....)

But the key question here is why make that move over some others. There is no way Gray is claimed. Probably not Maloney. But Nick raised the biggest question which is why not just put Morneau on the DL? Why in the hell is this team completely incapable of just throwing a guy on the DL who is obviously hurting, based both on his perfromace and the fact that they rushed him out to a specialist?

Morneau's WPA right now is -.21. I wonder if he'll play prior to 5/15. And if he does, I'm betting he hurts the team more than he helps it. This is a silly move.

They couldn't retroactively place Morneau on the DL, and if they suspect he's ready to play well before the 15 game mark, then I see why they didn't go that route. And while I have no love loss for Burroughs, the larger problem is why we have no one behind him.

For those so anxious to convert Carroll into a utility bench, I don't get it. He's delivering exactly as promised: getting on base, fielding his position better than adequately (and certainly better than we've seen for a long time, Hardy's injury-shortened season somewhat excepted). He's even made a number of clutch hits. Dozier has NOT performed well at Roch, and frankly isn't a highly ranked prospect. I don't see any reason to move Carroll anywhere (and particularly not out of the 2 hole, particularly given Alexi's performance last night, but even absent that).

twinzgrl
05-02-2012, 09:38 PM
Burroughs has the lowest BA on the team...no surprise to me that he's gone.

Bark's Lounge
05-02-2012, 09:46 PM
Hmmnn... The Son of Sal Returns. Lock your doors ladies and gentlemen. Plouffe at 3B tonight - I'm cool with it. Let's see what happens.

Montecore
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
At this point getting swept by the ****ing Angels 0-9, does the Burroughs move really matter? Why did they release Hughes last week who at least could put the bat on the ball unlike Burroughs? They're now 6-18. They look like they don't have a clue from game to game. Every pitcher is a crapshoot. Fundamentally, they're a terrible team. They're heading for a 40-122 season and I don't see a sliver of hope anywhere. There was a play tonight where Plouffe should have come in for a bunt and instead he stayed back and missed a chance at a DP. No communication, no heads up on Plouffe's part. Get rid of Gardenhire and Ryan, draft power pitchers, get rid of "The Twins Way", startt fresh, the philosophy is shot. Kyle Lohse looks like Cy Young these days. It's very depressing.

Bark's Lounge
05-02-2012, 11:22 PM
At this point getting swept by the ****ing Angels 0-9, does the Burroughs move really matter? Why did they release Hughes last week who at least could put the bat on the ball unlike Burroughs? They're now 6-18. They look like they don't have a clue from game to game. Every pitcher is a crapshoot. Fundamentally, they're a terrible team. They're heading for a 40-122 season and I don't see a sliver of hope anywhere. There was a play tonight where Plouffe should have come in for a bunt and instead he stayed back and missed a chance at a DP. No communication, no heads up on Plouffe's part. Get rid of Gardenhire and Ryan, draft power pitchers, get rid of "The Twins Way", startt fresh, the philosophy is shot. Kyle Lohse looks like Cy Young these days. It's very depressing.
anti-depressents might help you deal with your anger and sadness. Other than that strap into your seat for a long nasty ride of Twins futility. Maybe catching a little league game of baseball might restore some faith within your baseball wreckage.

Kdj2002
05-03-2012, 06:58 AM
I really can't lend any logic to the roster moves until Clete Thomas is addressed. I feel sorry for him because he is so over matched at this level.

savvyspy
05-03-2012, 11:34 AM
When your front office is this incompetent you are left discussing the merits of dumping a guy batting under .200 in favor of the worst hitter the majors has seen in 50 years. Good times.

Montecore
05-04-2012, 09:15 PM
anti-depressents might help you deal with your anger and sadness. Other than that strap into your seat for a long nasty ride of Twins futility. Maybe catching a little league game of baseball might restore some faith within your baseball wreckage.

Already on anti-depressants (who isn't?). However, to be relentlously monotonous about it - I don't believe they will play for Gardenhire. Maybe, it's subconscious, but they're tuning him out. If it's Molitor who's in line for the job, it'd be nice to see a new regime in place even if they are headed for an epic fail which seems likely.

Top Gun
05-04-2012, 09:49 PM
MLB.com's Brittany Ghiroli reports the Orioles plan to sign free agent 3B/SS Miguel Tejada if he can pass a Monday physical.

gil4
05-04-2012, 11:43 PM
MLB.com's Brittany Ghiroli reports the Orioles plan to sign free agent 3B/SS Miguel Tejada if he can pass a Monday physical.

Good. Maybe they will be willing to trade Hardy back to us. What broom closet did we stick Hoey in?

Thrylos
05-05-2012, 12:04 AM
Good. Maybe they will be willing to trade Hardy back to us. What broom closet did we stick Hoey in?

Toronto claimed him this off-season when the Twins tried to pass him throw waivers