PDA

View Full Version : Article: Mauer Making a Statement?



Nick Nelson
04-25-2012, 12:20 AM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?471-Mauer-Making-a-Statement

TwinsGuy55422
04-25-2012, 12:42 AM
Having Mauer on the field everyday is great. Even when he is not playing at an MVP level, he is still far better than most. I think he will continue to heat up as the season goes along.

twinswon1991
04-25-2012, 06:25 AM
Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract???? Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone. Terry Ryan needs tons of payroll flexibility to make up for his laundry list of mistakes due to his old school thinking.

Fire Dan Gladden
04-25-2012, 07:44 AM
Mauer making a statement is only part of this. Of course you want a top tier offensive player in the lineup as much as possible. Gardy is doing what he can to ensure he is in the lineup every day. Looking at the flexibility of the bench is a key component to this.

twinks2012
04-25-2012, 08:13 AM
Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract???? Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone. Terry Ryan needs tons of payroll flexibility to make up for his laundry list of mistakes due to his old school thinking.

Terry Ryan's laundry list of mistakes? I think he did pretty well with the money he had this off-season...It would of been nice to get a solid starting pitcher addition, but that's just not easy to do on the free agent market dealing with the money and years they want to give.

Shane Wahl
04-25-2012, 08:15 AM
"Is there a non-zero chance the Twins could trade Mauer's albatross contract????"

Is there a non-zero chance that Twins fans will ever stop complaining about this contract when the guy was highly UNDERPAID for years and years and then had ONE bad year at the beginning of the contract?

"Without trading the contract, this team will have little chance of competing until Joe is gone."

This is just false. The Twins could compete spending as much as they are now . . . the problem is that they are spending too much on terrible-to-average pitchers.

jeffk
04-25-2012, 10:14 AM
Is there a non-zero chance that Twins fans will ever stop complaining about this contract when the guy was highly UNDERPAID for years and years and then had ONE bad year at the beginning of the contract?

For a small-market team part of winning is underpaying guys and then moving on. Overpaying him now to somehow make up for the value we got from him early in his career may be good for Joe, but it's bad business for us.

Having said that, I don't really mind that much overpaying one excellent franchise player. But there's no point in pretending that he is likely to earn every dime of that contract, even if he plays well.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 10:16 AM
I think it is great he's on the field, and his legs do look fresh. Quite a bit of his WAR is due to his running better. His XBH however, needs some work. He's being outslugged by 8 qualified catchers, I don't even want to look at dh/1B stats....He needs to hit better for the money, he just does. At this price (more than 20% of the entire budget), he needs to be better. But, I agree, great, great sign that he's on the field every day.

USAFChief
04-25-2012, 10:48 AM
$23m/per and he gets praised because he's managed an iron man streak of three weeks?

deanlambrecht
04-25-2012, 10:49 AM
For a small-market team part of winning is underpaying guys and then moving on. Overpaying him now to somehow make up for the value we got from him early in his career may be good for Joe, but it's bad business for us.

Having said that, I don't really mind that much overpaying one excellent franchise player. But there's no point in pretending that he is likely to earn every dime of that contract, even if he plays well.

We're not a small market team any longer, from a $$ perspective. We're decidedly in the upper half, even with this year's lower (starting) payroll.

Shane Wahl
04-25-2012, 11:09 AM
He's hitting .389 with RISP. And slugging .667. Do those numbers mean nothing to the Mauer haters? There are four guys hitting well on this team. Why not focus negative attention towards the rest of the batters and the vast majority of the pitching staff.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 11:21 AM
shanewahl, 8 catchers are outslugging him, does that mean nothing to you? And, I'm not a hater, I'm a fan...

MileHighTwinsFan
04-25-2012, 11:26 AM
Let's be clear - Joe Mauer is and will be the face of this franchise for the balance of his contract. He knows it, Gardy knows it and management knows it. While probably every piece will change around him in the next two years, I fully expect him to be in the lineup almost everyday as the one constant that will bridge this franchise to the future. Like Killebrew, Carew, Puckett/Hrbek before him - Mauer is who people will come to watch, win or lose, as the Twins rebuild. I am not surprised in the least that he is playing everyday and playing at a high level.

jmlease1
04-25-2012, 11:56 AM
He's playing quite well, although it would be nice to see a little more power production. It's still early, and I expect we'll see more doubles flying around the park. But the anti-Mauer folks (Dan Barreiro, please pick up the white courtesy phone) will cherry-pick any failure as proof that he's crap and unworthy of his contract. He's a great player and with his legs under him this season, i think he's going to prove it all year. With Doumit available to catch, it's far less painful to have Joe plays a little 1B, DH, etc. and hopefully it will keep him able to play a lot more games.

That said, if Mauer is trying to prove anything, it won't be seen by a lot of the haters until a) he drives in a ton of runs (still too many people who rely on the RBI to show who a "good" player is), b) hits more home runs (chicks dig the long ball?), and c) plays a full season appearing in 140+ games. But I'll be perfectly happy if he plays a lot, hits like Joe Mauer, and quietly gives a big ol' middle finger to the critics.

Seth Stohs
04-25-2012, 12:16 PM
The key point isn't where he ranks right now in SLG (and that's not his stat to watch anyway, he's a BA/OBP guy). It's that he's healthy and Gardy is finding a way to get him in the lineup every day. My contention might actually be that they are making a statement that they shouldn't. I would have no problem with him missing a game every 20. He is still catching at least half the time, so a true day off would not be a bad thing.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 12:45 PM
I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.

USAFChief
04-25-2012, 12:49 PM
I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.

+1 all around.

Seth Stohs
04-25-2012, 12:53 PM
olHe'll get his SLG via doubles. He's 29. to a large extent, he is what it is at this point. I don't think it's fair or right to expect him to be something that he isn'tjust because of the contract that was signed 2 years ago. I don't want him to change the approach that has made him a future hall of famer.

Nick Nelson
04-25-2012, 01:45 PM
I do agree with Seth, that he should not try to play every game. I don't agree with Seth that walking and hitting singles adds up to $23MM worth of player, not on a team with a $100MM or less payroll. He does need to SLG more also.
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

Seth Stohs
04-25-2012, 01:54 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

That is correct!

Paul
04-25-2012, 02:10 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins...

How do you know? If you mean from a business perspective I believe you are clearly wrong. If you mean from an on the field perspective it seems debatable. (I suggest those who believe no other team would pony up for Joe haven't been paying attention to the market.) If you mean from a humanitarian point of view I agree with you. No human is worth that kind of dough because genetics allow them to play the game that they love better than everyone else.

USAFChief
04-25-2012, 02:32 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

A) money is a factor in MLB whether we like it or not. Particularly for teams not playing in Yankee Stadium.

B) given that, the issue then becomes if he can't earn his salary under the current situation, what can he and/or the team do differently in an attempt to come as close as possible.

IMO the team can move him off catcher so that 3 weeks without missing time is less likely to be a source of wonder and celebration, and Mauer can learn to turn on the ball and accept that being a run producer means sometimes you go up to the plate and look for a pitch to hit, rather than trying to avoid hitting until you have no choice.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 02:37 PM
Um, because that is his salary, and it impacts what else they can do with the roster. Because people are talking about his worth/value to the team, and that has to be measured against his salary. Value has a cost, and his cost is a really big number. How should he be measured, if not against what he costs? How about against other catchers? Even then, if he was paid $1MM, last year would have been a successful year, but he's not paid $1MM. So how should he be measured, if not by his contribution relative to his cost? Isn't that how value is determined?

For example, if he stayed where he is in WAR right now, how would you judge him, if not against how much he costs relative to that WAR? Because for $5MM, he's a bargain...should we discount, say, 8MM a year for being a hometown boy (which he's not, actually), meaning we should judge him relative to $15MM per year?

Because you can't just judge him relative to other C/1B/DH, without understanding the cost of that contribution relative to what other players produce per dollar spent.

SD Fan
04-25-2012, 02:37 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins.

I had to make an account to dissagree with this. I live in western SD and have been a Twins fan my entire life. I drive my family the 10 hours to Target Field for a weekend every summer. I do it so when my kids grow up, they can say, "I got to see Joe Mauer play baseball when I was a kid." We all have Mauer jerseys, Twins hats, etc. If they wouldn't have paid him, I wouldn't do any of that, I wouldn't watch every game on FSNorth. I would be done with baseball because I am so sick of the bleepin Yankees paying all the best players to leave. I probably would have completely sworn off the entire State of MN, never to return or even acknowledge it's existance. My kids would flunk geography because there would just be a big blank hole next to SD on our maps. Make no mistake, he may never hit more than 15 HR's again or be worth $23M to any other ball club, but he is definately worth the $23M to the Twins!

Ultima Ratio
04-25-2012, 02:41 PM
This is why you move Mauer to the 2-hole --- he's a very (too) patient single/doubles hitter who get OB a lot, but not an RBI guy. This also gets our best hitter more ABs. Why not make this move? B/c Grady likes a "balanced" lineup? B/C it's an admission of weakness, that you're "supposed" to have your best hitter in the 3-hole?

Vs. RHP VS. LHP (changes)
Span
Mauer
Willingham
Morneau (1B)
Doumit (DH)
Valencia
Parmellee (RF) Plouffe (RF)
Carroll
Casilla

Ultima Ratio
04-25-2012, 02:46 PM
Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?

TwinVike61
04-25-2012, 02:57 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

You're right...how about $150,000 per game...or $17,000 per inning?

Seroiusly, we're all just jealous. People would still be griping even if he had settled for $18M per year or even $13M...maybe not.

I do agree that it's too bad that's what it always comes back to. Joe is a great ballplayer who's having a solid start to the season by his standards and would be considered great by most other's standards.

SweetOne69
04-25-2012, 03:00 PM
Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?

Matt Holiday, David Wright and David Ortiz don't play Catcher. The added $8M comes from his ability to put up that OPS from the most physically demanding position in the game.

SD Fan
04-25-2012, 03:00 PM
Every player has an off field value, yes. But I believe that number is figured into the total deals already. You can't separate the two because it's too difficult to say with any certainty what a players off field value really is. In Mauer's case, I believe his is quite a bit higher than most, if not all current MLB players(Jeter might be close). I just feel like people need to let it go and enjoy watching him play without breaking down everything into dollars. I realize it's a business, but the look on my kids faces when he comes up to bat and we're live at the game is priceless to me. Sometimes you just have to overspend on the name brand products and it's ok. The Twins made the right decision with Mauer. But that's just my red neck south dakotan opinion.

daan4786
04-25-2012, 03:11 PM
Matt Holiday is making 15million/year and has a better career (162 games total average) OPS than Mauer and much higher RBI. If you look at adjusted OPS+, you'll find he's between David Wright and David Ortiz, both making 14-15million/year. This is what Mauer is worth on the field, roughly. Is there an off the field dollar amount, sure, but let's at least parse the two separately, but there's also an off the field number or Ortiz, Holiday and Wright, no?

I think defense and offensive scarcity at the catcher position probably push his value up a little bit. I think he won a couple of gold gloves at a tougher position than Wright or Holliday or Ortiz.

Ultima Ratio
04-25-2012, 03:13 PM
You're right...how about $150,000 per game...or $17,000 per inning?

Seroiusly, we're all just jealous. People would still be griping even if he had settled for $18M per year or even $13M...maybe not.

I do agree that it's too bad that's what it always comes back to. Joe is a great ballplayer who's having a solid start to the season by his standards and would be considered great by most other's standards.


The real caveat with griping the 23 million/year instead of the 15 million that he's producing is this: Only if the front office would take the 8 million/year and purchase quality pitching with is it worth an overall argument of scarce resources and efficiently utilizing that money to produce wins. That's the bottom line: wins. So, if the front office would not take the 8 million and put it to use, then I could care less if that's what Mauer makes, because it's not helping or hurting the team. You could payer Mauer 90million and have the rest of the team make up the 10 million this season and I'd bet we would still get 5 wins thus far. Am I wrong?

Nick Nelson
04-25-2012, 03:17 PM
If you mean from an on the field perspective it seems debatable. (I suggest those who believe no other team would pony up for Joe haven't been paying attention to the market.).
Yes, that's what I meant, and I don't really see it as debatable. A great deal of Mauer's value was vested in his playing catcher, which has already become a part-time assignment at age 29. The market doesn't bear much relevance here, as context is key; money spent affects different teams in different ways. For the Twins, Mauer represents nearly a quarter of the payroll. He was paid based on the player he was in 2009 and it seems unlikely we'll ever see that player again -- certainly not every year for the life of the contract (he's already missed that boat).

Criticizing the contract is an exercise in hindsight judgment, but that doesn't mean the claims don't ring true. Anyone who's being rational will admit that the Twins had no choice but to get the deal done, and due to some truly unfortunate timing they ended up paying an absolute premium. His bulky contract is something they now have to work around, but it doesn't change the fact that Mauer is ultimately an asset. I'd like to see more people focusing on that truth.

nicksaviking
04-25-2012, 03:20 PM
Mauer's contract should not hold this club back in the least. The Rockies were just fine handing out large contracts to their young stars despite the fact that Todd Helton was on the books for one of the largest and worst contracts in the history of the game. The Rockies payroll is $20M less than the Twins.

The reason the Twins are going to have trouble signing other big time players is because the Twins refuse to give out long term deals to anyone not in the organization, and never to pitchers. Generally speaking, the longer the contract, the less money the team will have to spend on the player on a yearly basis, as teams often get a discount by adding years. It's front office philosophy, not Mauer's contract that needs to be debated.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 04:37 PM
Mauer is an asset, agreed. We can all agree he adds great value to the team. We can all agree that value is greater if he is a catcher. We can all agree that he's a very good to great hitter.

If all you want is for people to say "Mauer is a great player", in a vacuum, great, I can do that, and I'm sure others can also. I'll stop posting on this thread, and wait for the threads where we talk about how to make the team better, and the value of various players to discuss his contract and its effect on the roster. Sorry we got off your intended discussion.

twinzgrl
04-25-2012, 04:42 PM
I am sick of people bitching about Mauer and his contract. The Twins gave it to him, and when they did, they must have believed that it would pay off. I don't believe that they thought that it meant the gloom and doom that most supposed fans believe it is. The Twins have enough money to get us a decent starter. There just aren't any currently available. Ever see all the Mauer jerseys being worn around the state of MN? MOST people love him, and there is a reason for that. He is the face of the franchise. He is a good guy with a lot of talent. FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO BITCH ABOUT. Johnny Depp makes ludicrous amounts of money for every motion picture he's in...I don't think he's worth that money either, but I'm not going to bitch about it. SOMEONE obviously thinks he is worth it.

Teflon
04-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Mauer's definitely got something to prove this year after all the bad fan vibe last year. This just affirms how valuable it is for us to continue being as negative as possible as frequently as possible! :)

John Bonnes
04-25-2012, 04:45 PM
It's clear at this point that Mauer is not going to be worth $23M to the Twins. There's not much use in further hand-wringing about his salary. I'm not sure why every discussion about him invariably needs to circle back to that complaint.

But it's a valid question. If it's a given he's not going to be worth that deal, could the Twins trade him? Should they?

I think the answers are No and Maybe later. No, because even if they could find a large market team desperate enough to take it on (and there are a couple) he would need to waive his no-trade clause. And "Maybe later" because I'd like to see where Herrmann and the entire franchise is in a year or so.

Paul
04-25-2012, 04:47 PM
Yes, that's what I meant, and I don't really see it as debatable. A great deal of Mauer's value was vested in his playing catcher...His bulky contract is something they now have to work around, but it doesn't change the fact that Mauer is ultimately an asset. I'd like to see more people focusing on that truth.

If Mauer continues on the track he's on for the balance of his career, most will consider him to be the best catcher the game has ever seen. Bench is the name most disagreeers (is this the only word in the English language with 3 consecutive "e"s ?) will cite. Observe.

Bench Year position games
68 C 154
69 C 147
70 C 139
OF 24
1B 12
3B 1
71 C 141
1B 12
OF 12
3B 3
72 C 129
OF 17
1B 7
3B 4
73 C 134
OF 17
1B 4
3B 1
74 C 137
3B 36
1B 5
75 C 121
OF 19
1B 9
76 C 128
OF 5
1B 1
77 C 135
OF 8
1B 4
3B 1
78 C 107
1B 11
OF 2
79 C 126
1B 2
80 C 105
81 C 1
1B 38
82 C 1
3B 107
1B 8
83 C 5
3B 42
1B 32
OF 1

Bench career OPS .817 ( If Bench played 1B or 3B the current generation of fans would probably be unfamiliar with him.)

Maurer career OPS .873 (this includes his injury riddled "11" and subpar "12" to this point)

I really like and agree with the last two sentences in your reply.

Seth Stohs
04-25-2012, 04:50 PM
1.) We knew all along that from a strictly baseball standpoint, the contract would never make sense, but we also all know that the Twins had to sign him or moving into Target Field may have been a mess.

2.) The money is spent. They can't un-do it. They can't alter it. It is what it is at this point.

3.) If the Twins have a $95 Million payroll this year, and Joe Mauer is $23 million of it, there is still another $72 million to spend, and Terry Ryan has build playoff teams on less than that. The Mauer contract is just an excuse.

4.) The Twins have given long-term contracts to several players. Sometimes it has worked (Hunter, Santana, Radke, Nathan's first one), and some haven't (Blackburn's, Nathan's second one).

Alex
04-25-2012, 04:57 PM
IMO, you can criticize the contract, but if that's your issue, you should focus that criticism on organization. I agree that even that's hard to do for reasons mentioned.

I think it's ridiculouly unfair to expect a hitter to change, especially adding power, when his track record shows that's just not the type of hitter he is.

While I don't mind him playing elsewhere occasionally, the idea that you get more value out of him elsewhere is counter intuitive. In fact, 1B is probably the worst place for him to earn value on the contract.

Alex
04-25-2012, 05:02 PM
One more question....let's say the Twins don't have Mauer, would they have spent that money? I'm not convinced and think their payroll could easily be around $75 million instead of $100. They had the opportunity and cash to pick up a couple $5-8 million this year and chose not to. They certainly wouldn't have been out to get anyone more expensive than that like Pujols or Reyes.

mike wants wins
04-25-2012, 08:47 PM
There were plenty of pitchers available in the offseason, and they signed marquis...and cut payroll. So, it isn't that they want to get guys and none were available, they chose not to sign them.

nicksaviking
04-25-2012, 09:21 PM
1.) We knew all along that from a strictly baseball standpoint, the contract would never make sense, but we also all know that the Twins had to sign him or moving into Target Field may have been a mess.

2.) The money is spent. They can't un-do it. They can't alter it. It is what it is at this point.

3.) If the Twins have a $95 Million payroll this year, and Joe Mauer is $23 million of it, there is still another $72 million to spend, and Terry Ryan has build playoff teams on less than that. The Mauer contract is just an excuse.

4.) The Twins have given long-term contracts to several players. Sometimes it has worked (Hunter, Santana, Radke, Nathan's first one), and some haven't (Blackburn's, Nathan's second one).

I'm on board with all of this except I would't consider a four year deal long term. The quality of player who sings a four year deal is usually quite different from the type that sign seven year deals.

Top Gun
04-25-2012, 09:31 PM
Mauer is worth every penny!